Mental Health Bill [HL]

Committee (3rd Day) (Continued)

20:10:00

Clause 20: Care and treatment plans

Debate on Amendment 57 resumed.

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 60A. At this time of night, I do not intend to make a very long or detailed speech; I simply wish to make two points. Previous speakers, such as the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, talked about factors that should be included in care and treatment plans and often are not, for a variety of reasons. But they are crucially and directly important to the health and well-being of an individual. I wish to talk about the inclusion of housing, for two reasons. First, housing is a source of anguish and mental strain, full stop. It does not matter whether people have mental health problems, but if they have and they find themselves in an acute hospital, either detained or as a voluntary patient, I am sure that, when they come back, there will be a very high incidence of them losing their tenancy and then being unable to find suitable accommodation, particularly if they are young. Members of your Lordships’ House have already spoken about the fact that there are very few treatment centres dotted around the country for young people with eating disorders—here in the Bill we are talking about England. That therefore means that young people are having to go very long distances for treatment, which can have a significant disruptive effect on their living circumstances. The other reason I thought it was worthwhile to table this amendment and have the debate was that the other day, we had a wider debate about care and treatment plans. The one question many of us were trying to ascertain the answer to was: who is responsible for them? Who is responsible for drawing them up and implementing them? Crucially, who is responsible if they are not implemented and there is a consequence to that for an individual? If we cannot focus our minds on that now, given what has been going on in the country, we never will. The only thing I could take away from our discussion the other day was that nobody is responsible for it at all; nobody is going to carry the can. When we are talking about people who have been in acute care, very little attention is paid to their housing needs, because that is not the duty of that service provider, whose focus is on acute care. We know that local authorities are already required to provide aftercare and advice to individuals, but advice in the face of a bailiff turfing you out of your house is frankly of limited use. So, I would like the Minister to please consider this amendment and give assurances that, when we ever get to the bottom of who is responsible for these care and treatment plans, this is on the list of things for which they can be held accountable.

20:15:00

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 62 in this group, which is in my name, and I will try to be as brief as possible. This group is all about the statutory care and treatment plans, and I very much welcome them. They are a very positive part of this legislation and should help patients achieve recovery and hopefully discharge from mental health in-patient units as quickly as possible. My amendment seeks to ensure that individuals who are turning 18 during a care and treatment plan have their plans reviewed to ensure that there is continuity of care when transitioning from child to adult services. I spoke earlier about the tricky issue of transitioning from child to adult services. It is important for three reasons. Young people aged 16 to 25 experience high rates of mental health problems but are less likely to access the support they need; young people often experience tricky transitions, meaning that too often they fall through the gaps—we have heard so many stories about in this Chamber in the past; and, again as we have said earlier today, young people really should have a say in their care and treatment. We know that there is a high level of mental health need among young people in the 16 to 25 age group and that it is going up. I have no wish to return to the earlier debate about whether that rise is real, but the numbers according to NHS Digital are very much on the increase. So, while 16 to 25 year-olds are experiencing high levels of need, they are often having real difficulties accessing support. It is sometimes talked about as the treatment gap, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, talked about earlier on, and it is far wider here than for other age groups. These poor transitions between CAMHS and adult services are generally the problem because, after someone reaches their 18th birthday—which is the upper limit for CAMHS—young people too often face a real cliff edge when trying to access mental health support. They are no longer in the age range for CAMHS and simultaneously may not reach the threshold for adult services. Effectively, it leaves young people in limbo, with no access to the mental health support they require. There is a range of reasons for these challenges, including poor information and, very importantly, a difference in treatment models. While children’s services are generally seen as more nurturing, with a focus on treating developmental and emotional disorders, adult services in contrast focus on treating severe and enduring mental illness, meaning that young people with these diagnoses are less likely to be accepted. Just as I have mentioned, the high thresholds for support often result in young people being told that they are not ill enough for the services they need, so unfortunately things get worse and they end up being detained. Without that support during transition, young people can experience all sorts of worsening symptoms and other life outcomes. That is the rationale behind my Amendment 62. I will mention another couple of amendments in this group that have my strong support. Amendment 64, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, from whom we have still to hear, really emphasises the critical importance of ensuring that, where young carers are involved in a family situation, they are identified, particularly by adult mental health practitioners, who may not have them in mind first and foremost, that people proactively look for them, and then that the young carers—who are often hidden, with their needs only identified when there is a crisis—are supported. That amendment has my full support. Lastly, I support Amendment 59, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies. At this point—because I have not done it yet—I refer to my interests in the register, both as a member of the Financial Inclusion Commission and president of the Money Advice Trust. I absolutely support what the noble Lord said about the importance of these plans, including matters to do with finance. The links between money problems and mental health are now well proven and this legislation should reflect them. The Bill provides a once-in-a-generation opportunity to ensure that people’s holistic needs, including finances, are considered as a key part of supporting recovery from a mental health crisis.

My Lords, I rise to explain the significance of Amendment 64 in my name, which aims to cover the situation of both young carers and young children in a family where a care and treatment plan is being prepared for their parent. I thank the Carers Trust for suggesting this amendment and providing a briefing on this issue. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his support for the amendment and, of course, the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who has just spoken of her support for it. Briefly, the amendment adds the requirement that a practitioner preparing or reviewing a care and treatment plan must ask whether there are children in the family and take actions to respond if the children need help or protection from harm. This amendment would, as I said, cover young carers, but it would also cover young children where there may be safeguarding concerns—a topic which the Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel highlighted as a theme in its latest annual report. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, just touched on, young carers are so often hidden, and often their needs are identified only when there is a crisis. Even then, the extent of their caring role and the impact it has on the child’s development may not be recognised quickly or fully assessed. This amendment would help to ensure earlier identification of children who might be in need of information, support or protection from potential harm. It would mean staff asking the right questions early on to ensure that the right information is recorded and actions taken. It would help with adequate signposting of information and a chance to offer appropriate support to avoid a crisis or manage it appropriately. The amendment also mirrors the new wording in the Working Together to Safeguard Children statutory guidance, which covers adult social practitioners: “When staff are providing services to adults, they should ask whether there are children in the family and take actions to respond if the children need help or protection from harm. Additional parenting support could be particularly needed where the adults have mental health problems”. There is evidence that having a parent with a mental health problem is one of the biggest risk factors for a first episode of major depressive disorder in children and adolescents. This is not inevitable. Research suggests that intervention can enhance parenting skills in households affected by parental depression, and it can change the way that children cope. In turn, this can reduce the risk of children internalising problems that may threaten their life chances. The amendment is designed to enhance the ability of agencies working individually and together to identify and respond to the safeguarding needs of families. It is about supporting the challenging work of finding out what is happening to children and anticipating risks and harm, of knowing when action is needed. In most cases, children receive the support, help and protection they need, but sometimes children are seriously harmed or, worse, they can die because of neglect. Policy initiatives in recent years have called for a wider family focus on safeguarding children so that all staff recognise that meeting the needs of family members who may put children at risk benefits the child, the adult and the family as a whole. This amendment would support those efforts. The amendment is in keeping with guidance from the Social Care Institute for Excellence to “Think child, think parent, think family”, to ensure that the child is heard and their needs are met. The Carers Trust believes that the amendment would unlock additional support from mental health professionals to work with parents and children to enable the child to have age-appropriate understanding of what is happening to their parent and information about what services are available for them in their situation and how they can access them. To illustrate the need for the amendment, I have two short case studies. Aidan was four when his mother was first sectioned under the Mental Health Act. Throughout his childhood, Aidan’s mother was regularly sectioned and would sometimes be in hospital for a number of months. There were many occasions when the police were involved because his mother had disappeared, which was particularly scary for Aidan. In his words: “To me, you only ever saw the police if you’d done something wrong, so I remember when they turned up at our house, I thought mum was in trouble”. Seeing his mother being taken into hospital on a regular basis meant that Aidan had lots of questions and worries. In his words again: “There were so many times where I wondered whether mum would ever come home. I knew she’d been sectioned but I had no idea what that actually meant or if she would ever get better”. Staff at the hospital who were treating Aidan’s mother would regularly see him visiting. Despite this, none of the staff there told Aidan or his father about support that might be available or asked whether Aidan might need any help. It was only when Aidan was 12 and his attendance dropped at school that he was identified as a young carer. The second case is Vamp’s story. This is a pseudonym chosen by her family. The case study is taken from a recently published child safeguarding practice review which found that a 13 year-old girl died as a result of taking drugs sold to her in a park. It was identified that her mother had had a period of serious mental illness, and that illness was identified as the catalyst for things deteriorating for the young person. Tragically, two years on, the young person had died. This is taken from the relevant extract from the child safeguarding practice review: “Vamp’s mother did not feel that her daughter had been a young carer … as the mental illness was short term. However, Vamp’s sister described the situation as being so difficult for both. When their mother was discharged home from hospital, it was only Vamp and her mother at home. Vamp’s sister was only a young adult, and with her own baby to care for. She … said she felt that no one checked in on their mother. Vamp’s sister … said that professionals expected her mother to manage to parent Vamp, which she was not able to do alone, she needed professional help”. This is a simple but important amendment to protect young carers. I urge my noble friend the Minister to consider it, and I commend the amendment to the House.

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 64, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, and shall speak briefly in support. I have not contributed to this Bill before, but I have sat through many of the debates. Without sounding pompous, it struck me that this was our House at its best, dealing with a complicated Bill in a sensitive and non-partisan way and drawing on the unique expertise we have in our House. As I listened to the earlier debates on detention and community treatment orders, I asked myself how the children in the families concerned would be informed and what the impact on them would be. We have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, the impact on Aidan when his mother was sectioned. By definition, the people covered by the Bill are vulnerable people; many of them will have carers, and many of those carers will be young carers. As the noble Baroness has just said, this amendment simply helps improve the earlier identification of children of parents being detained under the Act and to ensure that they have access to support, if they need it, and are safeguarded where necessary. The 2021 census showed that there are 50,000 young carers caring for over 50 hours a week. An astonishing number—3,000 of them—are aged between five and nine. The Carers Trust has shown that those young carers at school are at risk of a poorer attendance record, lower academic achievement and more liable to social isolation and, sadly, bullying, if they are not identified early. As the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, just said, having a parent with a mental health problem is actually one of the biggest risk factors for depression in children and adolescents. But it is not inevitable: research suggests that intervention can reduce that risk and change the way that children cope. As a vice-chairman of the APPG on Young Carers, I know that we took evidence last year from young carers, and we heard that on average it takes three years for a young carer to be identified, with some of them taking over 10 years before being identified. Improving early identification is one of the top priorities of the all-party group, so that they can access support and not be negatively affected by their caring situation. This amendment will help to tackle the issue, which is reported by young carer services, that many potential young carers are not identified by adult mental health services. For example, one young carers service, the Young Carers Alliance, reported that 20% of the young carers it supports are supporting a parent with a mental illness, yet they did not receive a single referral from the adult mental health services in the space of an entire year. In our inquiry, we also heard from the charity Our Time how, when it comes to identifying young carers by mental health professionals, we are way behind countries such as the Netherlands and Norway. Both those countries have introduced requirements for health professionals to consider whether adults with mental health problems have children. This referral may not be a one-way process; if the child is a carer, he or she may have an insight into the events that trigger an episode in the parent and may actually help the professionals to identify an appropriate treatment pathway. A final benefit of this amendment is that it would help adult mental health in-patient units ensure that they are complying with the duty under Section 91 of the Health and Care Act 2022 to consult with any carers, including young carers, before discharging an adult from hospital. Again, last year, we heard of patients being discharged without the young carer being informed, often where they were the principal carer. For these reasons, I hope that the Government can support this amendment. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

20:30:00

My Lords, I add my support for Amendment 58, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and to which I have added my name. Briefly, given the time, the care and treatment plan is a major plank, a pivotal safeguard of the Bill. The safeguard is not open to voluntary patients. As the noble Baroness outlined, we want to encourage many young people to voluntarily enter a hospital to get the treatment that they need. A 2021 UCL research project found that only 23.6% of young people were detained involuntarily. The large cohort would be those who have consented by parental consent and those who voluntarily entered the treatment. As such a high proportion of the under-18 population are entering voluntarily, it is imperative that they also have a care and treatment plan.

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the pertinent points that they have made. I will start with Amendments 57 and 58. There is no doubt that all patients who are in a mental health hospital for care and treatment should have a care plan, whether or not they have been detained under the Act. This is already set out in guidance for commissioners and in the NHS England service specification and care standards for children’s and young people’s services. In line with the independent review’s findings and recommendations, care and treatment plans for involuntary or detained patients are statutory. This is because such patients are subject to restrictions and compulsory orders, including compulsory treatment, which places them in a uniquely vulnerable position. Rather than bringing voluntary patients into the scope of this clause, we feel it is more appropriate to use the Mental Health Act’s code of practice to embed high standards of care planning for all patients—voluntary and involuntary. Specifically with regard to children and young people, any provisions that are relevant to voluntary patients are already met by existing specialist care planning standards and the NHS England national service specification for children’s and young people’s services, which providers are contractually obliged to follow. NHS England is already in the process of strengthening that current service specification. Regarding points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and my noble friend Lord Davies on the contents of the care and treatment plan and patient discharge plan, as my noble friend Lord Davies kindly set out for me, which I appreciate, the Government have consulted on the required contents of the care and treatment plan, as originally proposed by the independent review. The expected contents of the plan are described in the delegated powers memorandum, which has been published online. I understand the points that my noble friend made; we will return to them regarding what we intend to include in the patient discharge plan. I turn to Amendment 59, tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies and supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Neuberger. The plan needs to include details of interventions aimed at minimising financial harm to the patient where this is relevant to their mental health recovery. My noble friend asked for my agreement on this point. I hope that he will take that in this way. We intend to set out in regulations, rather than in primary legislation, what that plan must include. We will consider personal financial matters that are relevant to a number of the elements that we intend to require in regulations, such as the services that a patient might need post discharge. My noble friend’s point, and that of the noble Baronesses, is very well made and is taken on board. Turning to Amendment 60A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, I confirm that the Bill sets out who is responsible for the statutory plan. For in-patients, this is the clinician who is responsible overall for the patient’s case. The quality of plans for detained patients is monitored by the CQC. Any housing, accommodation or wider social care needs that are relevant to the patient’s mental health recovery are already captured within the scope of the statutory care and treatment plan. We intend to require in regulations about the content of the plan that a discharge plan is a required element of the overall care and treatment plan—which noble Lords rightly have pressed the need for. Existing statutory guidance on discharge sets out that a discharge plan should cover how a patient’s housing needs will be met when they return to the community. Currently, where a mental health in-patient may benefit from support with housing issues, NHS England guidance sets out that this should be offered, making links with relevant local services as part of early and effective discharge planning. Where a person is receiving housing benefit or their housing is paid for via universal credit, there are provisions already in place that allow them to be temporarily absent from their property for a limited duration. We know that the vast majority of people entering hospital will return home before the time limit expires, therefore avoiding a negative impact on their living situation. We intend to use the code of practice to clearly set out expectations on mental health staff around care planning, including consideration of accommodation and housing needs, and also to highlight existing provisions that protect a person’s living arrangements while they are in hospital. On Amendment 61, tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, we of course recognise the importance of involving parents, guardians and those with parental responsibility in decisions around care and treatment. We have already provided for this in the clause by stating “any … person who cares for the relevant patient or is interested in the relevant patient’s welfare”. The clause seeks to include also carers and other family. As I said last week, this is consistent with existing established terminology used in the Mental Capacity Act and the Care Act. The amendment would also make this a requirement for all patients, not just children and young people. We do not think it is appropriate here to give an automatic right to parents to be involved in an adult patient’s care. However, we have made provisions to ensure that anyone named by an adult patient, including parents, are consulted where the patient wishes them to be.

On that last point about adults, I realise this is a more difficult area, but we have debated in this House reports from the charity Mind about adults, and young adults at that, who, when they have been admitted not just to mental health hospitals but to general hospitals and have had difficulty communicating —I go back to autism, but it might not be uniquely autism—hospital staff have said, “They are over 18, so we’re not listening to you, mum”, while standing by the bedside asking why a person is not eating, when there is probably a very good reason why not. We have recorded deaths of young adults because the parents of people over 18 have not been listened to. It is a mantra that I have heard many times, in many situations: “They’re over 18, it’s up to them”, when, in fact, quite clearly, their lives could be saved, or their health improved, if hospital staff had listened to mum or dad at the bedside. That is on the record and we have debated it in the past, so I wonder how the Minister thinks we can resolve it as far as mental health patients are concerned.

The noble Baroness is right to raise that point. This is the difference between legislation and practice, and we have to bridge that gap. We are very alive to the point she makes, but the important point about this amendment is that we are trying to include all those whom the patient wants to be involved, not just restricting it to parents. I take the point she has made and will, of course, ensure that we attend to that. I would say that that is, as I say, more a case of how things are implemented. On Amendment 62, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, it is important that the transition of a young person to adult services is planned and managed with the utmost care by the clinical team. This is reflected in existing care standards and guidelines, which set out what should be met, what relevant teams should meet and how to provide specific support where a young person’s care is being transferred to adult services. This should take place six months prior to the patient turning 18 years of age. On reviewing the patient’s statutory care and treatment plan when they reach adulthood, in Clause 20, subsection (5)(d) of new Section 130ZA already sets out that that plan must be reviewed following any change in circumstances or conditions. We think that turning 18 and transitioning from children and young people’s services to adult is a significant change and absolutely requires review of the plan. We will make this explicit in the code of practice. Finally, I turn to Amendment 64. I thank my noble friend Lady Keeley for sharing the reality of how this manifests itself by sharing with us individual circumstances. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, whose work on young carers is well known and respected. We support the intention to ensure that children are properly safeguarded. If a person is known to services, immediate safeguarding needs to form part of the planning by approved mental health professionals on behalf of the local authority and others involved in the Mental Health Act assessment before bringing a person into hospital. If a person is not known to known to services, the professionals should work with the relevant agencies to make sure the necessary steps are taken. The statutory guidance Working Together to Safeguard Children sets out how all practitioners working with children and families need to understand their role in this regard.

I just want to reflect that the noble Lord, Lord Young, said in his speech that young carers services almost never receive any referrals from adult mental health services, despite the provision that already exists and has done for a number of years in codes of practice. This is a difficult thing—I tried to bring in legislation for that in the other place on a number of occasions. I just thought that was worth pointing out.

I thank my noble friend for pointing that out. On the points raised about protections for young carers, the code highlights that children who are caring for parents with severe mental illness are entitled to request a young carer’s needs assessment under the Children Act. It goes on to cover the information that young carers should be offered to help navigate such a challenging time. Returning to the guidance about which I was speaking, as has been identified, it already outlines the responsibility of multiagency safeguarding partners. Protecting children at risk of abuse and stopping vulnerable children falling through the cracks is very much at the heart of the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, which was introduced to Parliament last month.

I thank the Minister. I want to raise the issue that so many children and adolescents are placed for care out of their area, which makes the subsequent treatment plan hard to manage. Can the Minister at least look at whether the code of conduct needs strengthening on that issue? For example, it could include a recommendation that a local team visits the person in the hospital before they are discharged. Of course, I would like to see more beds closer to home, but we have to face the reality.

I appreciate that point, and I certainly would be happy to have a look at that.

20:45:00

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate on this group. In responding to the Minister, I will touch briefly on some of the other amendments, but particularly on Amendment 57 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe. I thank my noble friend Lady Browning and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for adding their names to it. On Amendment 61, I agree very much with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on the importance of parents and guardians, not only in respect of this amendment but all throughout the Bill and in the subsequent amendments that she tabled. It is very important that we do not forget that point and that we keep coming back to it. On Amendment 58, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Watkins, and my noble friend Lady Berridge, we are very sympathetic to the idea of extending this to under-18s. We have to reflect and may come back to this on Report. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, and I were fortunate enough to have a conversation about his Amendment 59 during the dinner break. It is on a fundamental issue and we need to raise awareness of the link between finance and mental health. One can lead to the other: you might start off with financial difficulties and then find yourself with mental health issues, or mental health issues make it far more difficult to manage your finances. Frankly, when there are banks that do not necessarily understand the individual circumstances or are moving toward semi-automated decision-making, this is a whole minefield that we ought to tackle as soon as possible and not wait 20 years for the next mental health Bill. On Amendment 62, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, continuity of care is absolutely important, and not just for mental health; I have been in debates in this House where it is really important for allergies or diabetes. When children are treated for a condition by children’s services they then worry, when they transfer to adult services, about whether they will continue to receive the same level of care, particularly if the clinician is different when they move over. They may well have had a very good relationship with that clinician as a child, but then they feel that they have to explain everything all over again, even though there are patient records. Amendment 64, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, and my noble friend Lord Young, seems eminently sensible. It almost seems obvious; I was surprised that it does not happen at the moment. I take on board what the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, said about previous attempts to put it into legislation; it must be fiendishly difficult. One of the points that the Minister made was that young carers are entitled to some of the things that the noble Baroness was asking for. How do they know they are entitled to them? It is all very well to be entitled to them, but how do they know? This is true for physical health as well, but given it was raised on this specific issue, I would be interested in the Minister’s response. If she is not able to give that response, thanks to technology, over the airwaves to the iPad then perhaps she could include it in her letter to noble Lords afterwards. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, made an important point about Amendment 60A and housing. Housing, like finance, is one of those things that could lead to mental health issues, or having mental health issues makes housing much more difficult. The lack of adequate accommodation could lead to readmission, when we think about discharge afterwards, suitable accommodation and suitable circumstances. I should be positive. I am grateful to the Government for the care and treatment plans in the first place. I think they are very sensible, which is why many noble Lords want them extended to not just that cohort of patients. I understand that sometimes we have to roll things out and learn from experience, and perhaps that can feed into future rollout—I understand sometimes not going for the big bang, as it were. On Amendment 57, I will read Hansard carefully and reflect on what the Minister said. I particularly thank her for the reference to the link to see what is being considered for inclusion in the care and treatment plan. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 57 withdrawn.

Amendments 58 to 62 not moved.

Amendment 63

Moved by

63: Clause 20, page 30, line 5, at end insert “and provide information in a culturally appropriate manner.” Member’s explanatory statement The appropriate practitioner must provide culturally appropriate information when preparing or reviewing a care and treatment plan.

My Lords, I have apologised that I was not able to be at the Second Reading of this most welcome Bill. I declare interests as a former member of the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust board and various positions in Gypsy, Traveller and Roma organisations as set out in the register. I read the Hansard record of the Second Reading debate and was particularly heartened by my noble friend the Minister’s acknowledgment of previous legislation’s lack of attention to racial disparities. This deficiency is especially applicable to the situation of Gypsy, Traveller and Roma people, which Amendments 63, 101, 107, 113, 116 and 124 address, but I warmly support the other amendments in this group. The communities I speak of are usually airbrushed out of consideration of race discrimination. That is partly because their numbers have been small when national surveys have been made in the past, even though the proportion within their populations who suffer the multiple effects of discrimination is larger than in any other recognised minority-ethnic group, and perhaps partly because they are not distinguished by colour. I am grateful to the Traveller Movement for detailed briefing and to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, for their support. The amendments I speak to are all intended to probe how this Bill can avoid the same cruel mistake of omitting ways to deal with the mental health effects of discrimination against these communities. Basically, they stipulate that mental health practitioners must be trained and obliged to ensure that the care, treatment, advice and information they give are attuned to the culture of the people they are looking after. In healthcare generally, almost one-third of respondents to a Traveller Movement survey said that they experienced discrimination. These are the voices that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to, and I thank her for adding her name to one of my amendments. There is reason to believe that this discrimination experience applies significantly to mental ill-health because this is not a familiar concept to some in the more traditional communities. Most of the rare, targeted provision has come from the voluntary sector. ONS research, which has now begun to put right the gap in our knowledge, shows that mistrust and fear of discrimination have delayed them seeking help. We do, however, still need its data to be disaggregated with regard to Gypsies and Irish Travellers, which are very different communities. Incidentally, the NHS data dictionary is not collecting such data at all, so the full picture may be even worse. Amendment 63 applies the principle of cultural attunement to care and treatment plans. Only then would new subsection (6), which requires consultation to establish the patient’s wishes and needs, be properly fulfilled. This will mean taking account of possible mistrust, literacy rates, digital exclusion and any language barriers, because although Romani Gypsies and Irish Travellers have been in the UK for centuries, there may also be new arrivals from the Roma communities of east and central Europe. Let me quickly sketch in the context. At present, one survey found that 66% of domestic abuse service providers—professionals—did not know how to engage with Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people. There is in particular a fear on the part of those communities that their children may be taken into care if they seek support for acute mental health problems, and some cases of suicide have thereby resulted. In fact, suicide is, tragically, much more common in these communities than in other groups. The NHS’s own research, carried out by the University of Worcester, cites an estimate that suicide is seven times more likely. It makes recommendations mandating specific cultural training in all aspects of healthcare. Research by Friends, Families and Travellers has found that lack of support from mental health and other public services is specifically mentioned by those affected to be one of the causes, together with cultural stigma. Anxiety is three times more likely and depression over twice as likely. The Roma Support Group also picks out cultural stigma as one of the barriers to effective treatment for mental illness, as well as lack of knowledge on the part of practitioners about the background of Holocaust survival experienced by older members of the Roma community, and often transmitted over the generations. Where literacy is low, it has been found that there is little understanding of mental health and insufficient access to services; and 46% from these communities reported that they had no access to digital primary care services. Amendments 101 and 107 apply the same principles of trained cultural access to the provision of an independent mental health advocate, as does Amendment 112 to giving information about the complaints procedure. Amendment 113 brings in the providers of information on complaints for community health patients, and Amendments 116 and 124 do the same for advance choice documents in England and in Wales. Finally, the Women and Equalities Committee pointed out in 2019: “Despite the fact that information and guidance has been available to frontline healthcare staff for some time, discriminatory practices are more widespread than they should be”. Apart from the new, most welcome planning policy, very little has changed since then, no doubt because the committee’s other recommendation, that there should be a cross-departmental strategy to tackle the overlapping inequalities faced by these communities, which have resulted in the worst health outcomes for any minority-ethnic group, was never developed by the previous Government despite the initial steps taken by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, when Minister for Communities. The Minister has cited the NHS role in a “wider equality monitoring review programme” in a Parliamentary Answer. Can she tell the House how this will cover access to mental health services? The present lack of engagement is why cultural understanding, created by specific training, must be in the Bill. These amendments would help the Bill realise its ambition of fully informing patients of the choices available to deal with serious mental ill-health, strengthening their voice and improving their involvement in their own care. I beg to move.

21:00:00

My Lords, Amendments 65 and 133, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Scriven, are both about tackling racial injustices in the operation of the Act. I am sympathetic to the amendments that we have just heard about from the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, who set them out eloquently. I also strongly support Amendment 138, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. As I have said in previous debates, a primary driver of the review of the Mental Health Act was the shocking racial injustices in the use of the Act, and we need to have that front and centre in our minds as we work our way through the Bill. Addressing racial inequalities is one of the key issues identified in the 2018 review, and there remain concerns that the Bill still does not go far enough to address that deeply entrenched inequity. As I set out on the first day of Committee when introducing my amendment on including equity as an additional principle in the Bill, black people are more than three and a half times more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act than white people and over seven times more likely to be placed on a community treatment order. I make no apology for repeating those figures because I think they are scandalous. Evidence shows that, on average, people from racialised communities experience greater difficulty accessing mental health services and have poorer experiences and outcomes, and we have heard examples of that. For example, black or black British people are more likely to be detained for longer and to experience repeated admission. They are also more likely to be subject to police powers under the Act and experience higher levels of restraint. It is worth noting that the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, in his recent report on the NHS, said the use of restrictive interventions in in-patient mental health settings had continued to rise, and the most recent data shows that people from a black or black British background are still significantly more likely to be subject to restrictive intervention. I readily acknowledge that there are some measures in the Bill that should have a positive impact for people from racialised communities—for example, the introduction of the advance choice documents that we were talking about earlier, which I very much welcome—but, in my view, the Bill in its current form still only scratches the surface, really. It does not take on many of the recommendations in this area from both the independent review of the Act and the pre-legislative scrutiny committee. Can the Minister explain why those recommendations were not taken on board? I turn to my amendments. Amendment 65—and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for adding her name—is a probing amendment designed to understand better the Government’s thinking on how they intend to address racial disparities in the use of community treatment orders, which we debated at length on Monday. I do not want to repeat that, save to say that community treatment orders have been used more widely than anticipated and disproportionately on individuals from particular ethnic backgrounds. It is vital that this is closely monitored to ensure that the disproportionality in use is tackled head on. We must not focus just on reductions in the overall numbers of CTOs. Does the Minister agree that that should include collecting evidence on the effectiveness of NHS England’s patient and carer race equality framework and its approach to reducing the overrepresentation of people from black and minority ethnic communities? Just to show that, rather like my noble friend Lord Scriven, I do not get out enough, I noticed that page 88 of the lengthy impact assessment talks about 13 pilots—trusts that have already started to make changes as a result of this anti-racism framework. Can the Minister update the House on their progress? If she cannot do so now, perhaps she could write to me. We know that people from these racial backgrounds may also be reluctant to seek help from formal services, based either on previous negative experiences or in some cases because of social stigma attached to mental health issues within their own community. Amendment 133 would require mental health units to appoint a responsible person to address and report on racial disparities and other inequalities relating to the use of the Act. This is really important and it is vital that a new responsible person role is introduced at hospital level to oversee race equality and address inequalities in the operation of the Act. The responsible person would be responsible for publishing a policy on how that unit plans to reduce racial and other disparities which are based on protected characteristics in that unit or community mental health service. They would have responsibility for monitoring data on equalities as well as overseeing workforce training and policies and drawing up policies to address bias and discrimination. In my view, the creation of a responsible person role at local level would materially help us to move forward to a more transparent and accountable mental health system, and this accountability would be reinforced and amplified by the responsibility this amendment also places on the Secretary of State to report on progress made on reducing inequalities at national level. That is set out in proposed new Section 120H. I really believe that such a dual-pronged approach to clear and transparent accountability could make a tangible difference in this critical area of public policy, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

My Lords, as has already been acknowledged, I have put my name to Amendment 63, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and Amendment 65, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. Both of them have done a comprehensive job of introducing the amendments so I will be extremely brief. The noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, is well known in your Lordships’ House for championing the many issues affecting Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people. I particularly wanted to sign Amendment 63 because it is a very broad-ranging amendment—it is crucial that everybody gets culturally appropriate forms of explanation. It struck me as we were debating that we are focused now on mental health, but I think this probably would also apply right across the NHS to physical health because there are, of course, cultural differences in understanding our bodies, et cetera. If we imagine the case, perhaps, of a refugee who suffers mental health difficulties, having fled their home country, where they were subject to abuse by the authorities. It is important to make sure, if they are to be sectioned, that that is carefully explained to and understood by both the patient and potentially the patient’s family. There needs to be an extra level and a sensitivity to that person’s circumstances. We will all have different circumstances, but it is important to look at it in that broad frame. On Amendment 65, we have already canvassed quite extensively the way in which minoritised communities are currently seeing significant disparities in the way they are treated under the law in the area of mental health, particularly in community treatment orders. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, described this as a probing amendment. Whether this is the exact means or not, it is clear that we have to have much better data and to make sure that as soon as trends and patterns emerge in that data, they are acted on. It is encouraging to hear that this is being piloted and work is being done but it is crucial that this becomes standard and that is why it is tempting to feel that it really has to be in the Bill.

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group. I also want to communicate the support of my right reverend friend the Bishop of London, who apologises that she cannot be in her place this evening. Turning to the amendments led by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, on culturally appropriate care, I appreciated the noble Baroness’s references to the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community. I have worked with that community much over many years and very much enjoyed my interactions with it. These amendments highlight issues that my right reverend friend has spent a lot of time considering, particularly from a faith perspective. I do not think we have heard that in the debate so far tonight. It is sometimes hard to grasp just how differently our health, especially our mental health, is culturally understood across different communities and faith groups. While our ability to discuss our own and others’ mental health may be generally improving—I think it is—it remains an extremely difficult discussion point for many cultures and many communities. When you combine that with the extensive inequalities of outcomes that we find, and many people’s experiences of culturally inappropriate care in mental health and other settings, it is inevitable that many people are reluctant to engage with preventative services. It was said at Second Reading that minoritised communities are likely to engage at a crisis point rather than seek early interventions. My wife worked for many years as a maths specialist in the home and hospital tuition service of a large urban authority. She regularly found that she was working with pupils whose mental health needs had been picked up late, if at all, because the culture of the parental home saw mental health issues as shameful, and not something you could raise with external service providers. So culturally appropriate care is a crucial step if we are to build the trust that is ultimately vital to reducing health inequalities. In order that culturally appropriate care is deliverable, training on faith literacy, as well as different cultures and beliefs, will be crucial. Again, I have found that myself; I have been working with my fellow faith leaders in Greater Manchester, including the excellent Caribbean and African Health Network. I make no apology for banging on about religious literacy in your Lordships’ House on yet another occasion: it does really matter. Service providers in all sectors do us a huge disservice when, through their own faith illiteracy, they operate with a presumption that religion matters only in the realm of private affairs. Getting it right in this Bill will of course necessitate additional resource. In supporting these amendments, I hope that sufficient resources will be allocated to this work. I turn finally to Amendments 65, 133 and 138, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. I am a statistician by background. We know the importance of good and useable data to ensure that we have an understanding not just of the gulfs of inequality of outcomes but of the more nuanced and complex patterns that lie underneath them. Amendment 133 recognises the need for regular training and has a consultation element as part of the policy. I hope this will be taken up and I hope that will include consultation with faith groups. We must commit to work with such groups to build trust with communities that service providers are wont to call hard to reach. I do not believe we should call any group in our society hard to reach. What we do have, all too often, are service providers who just do not make enough effort to reach. So instead, let us work with organisations such as CAHN, which I mentioned earlier, to ensure earlier interventions than those we often see. I also warmly welcome Amendment 138, which, as others have said, highlights an appalling scandal in our society. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for tabling that amendment.

I know the hour is late, but I want to note the irony that the issues covered by these amendments are central to the whole process of why we have arrived at this Bill. In a sense it is unfortunate that, because of the hour, there are so few of us present. I want to stress that we cannot assume it is job done. It is really important to keep this whole area under review, whether we do it precisely in the terms of the amendments before us or not. I urge my noble friend the Minister to give an assurance that this issue will not be left for another 17 years before we decide that we have got it right, and that the workings of the Bill in this central area will be kept under close and continued review.

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support Amendment 133. I know the hour is late. As I asked the Minister, why is it that issues relating to this focus, which was the focus of the Bill, seem always to end up at the end of our debates? I am not sure why, but they are some of the most important issues. I reflected at Second Reading and earlier in Committee on the Joint Committee’s work and our concern about the strength of civil society and media focus on this issue. Although what we saw seemed expert, we then saw a comparison with what I would call Premier League—which was learning disabilities and autism in terms of that focus. I turn to new Section 120H, which the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, mentioned, and the statistics I cited before. The right reverend Prelate mentioned the importance of data. It is very concerning that, when we talk about the data on under-18s, we are not quite clear about what is going on in relation to it. The data on under-18s that I mentioned has three subgroups: those who are detained, those who are in the cohort because their parents have consented and those who have consented themselves. It is imperative that we know exactly which subgroup is which in the under-18s group—which, thankfully, is a small group of about 1,000. Even in the data I cited from the UCL study, of the 23.6% of under-18s that were detained, three times as many black young people were detained as their counterparts. That issue is starting early. What is happening even at that early stage—the disproportionate number detained under the Act—was also reflected in the data on the lack of parents consenting to children going into hospital for the treatment that they need.

21:15:00

With new Section 120H and reporting, I hope that the Minister will focus on young people and outline that we will have very detailed data on that cohort going forward. It is with great sadness that we stand here, knowing that our mental health laws are not working. It has now been over six years since the review, but we have still not legislated and we seem to be not much nearer to understanding the causal factors.

Finally, I note as a postscript that it is not only the understanding that the right reverend Prelate outlined. When one looks at training—obviously, we always talk about the training of healthcare professionals, et cetera—we see that, because a disproportionate number of people from ethnic minority communities are still within some kind of faith community, it is imperative that there is a heightened awareness of the need to train leaders, in those worshipping centres and other support groups, to recognise that many people repeatedly present as needing prayer in a Christian context. But they do not need prayer; they need to be told to go to their GP. For that reason, they often present later and they are often sicker by the time they present. Based on research I read a while ago, that is one of the reasons why in the black community there is later presentation; they are not accessing the services earlier. So can the Minister include in the focus of training that it is not just clinicians and those to whom the code of practice applies that need it?

My Lords, during the debates on this Bill—and throughout my time in this place—I have learned that there are specific topics about which other noble Lords are passionate. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who is not in her place for sad reasons, is passionate about many issues; but, in the context of this Bill, she has long championed issues around the detention of those with autism and learning disabilities, as has my noble friend Lady Browning. My noble friend Lady Berridge is very passionate about children and young people and about tackling racial discrimination, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is very passionate about the link between finance and mental health. Many noble Lords are passionate about specific issues. For me, Amendment 138, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe, goes to the heart of an issue in which I very strongly believe, based on my own experiences of racism while growing up in Britain. Before I go into that, I will touch on the amendments from by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. In one of my first work experiences—in Chase Farm Hospital many years ago—I got to know and speak to a young patient from the Traveller community. He told me about the problems that the Traveller community had in getting access to medical care, and how members of the community were always treated with suspicion and not in the same way. So I am very sympathetic to those amendments. To get back to my own experience, the Britain of recent years, which my children grew up in, is much less racist than the Britain that I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, when it was common to be called offensive names or to be chased by skinheads, sometimes actually with weapons and knives. But my experience was a lot better than the racism that my father faced when he came here in the 1950s. There are horrendous stories that he told my siblings and me when I was younger. I believe that we can be proud of that progress, as a country and a society. When I was a Member of the European Parliament, I used to chat to the taxi drivers in Belgium and France. I would tell them that I was from London, and not all of them but many of them would say how lucky I was, since they had a friend or relative in London and they thought that London was incredibly diverse and tolerant compared with where they lived. That was very touching to hear—but I have to admit that that is my experience, and some will have had different experiences. Even my experience does not mean that the battle against racism and racial disparities is over. As many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Davies, the right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lady Berridge, have rightly said, we have to be vigilant on this. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, one reason for the review and this Bill is because my noble friend Lady May commissioned the Wessely review due to the disproportionate number of black people being issued with community treatment orders or being detained; noble Lords have referred to this. We have known about that issue for a long time. Although politicians in the other place and many noble Lords here have raised the issue many times over many years, we do not really seem to have grasped the issue or to be on top of it. When I ask colleagues and medical experts about the disparity, I get a variety of answers. In the absence of any widely distributed and comprehensive study, the vacuum is filled by anecdotes or assumptions, sometimes racial stereotypes. One of the most common responses I have heard is that it is complex or multifaceted. I remember when I did not initially get into the local grammar school, despite having the best grades in the class—better than some of the white pupils who got into the school; it also happened the previous year, in the year above me, when one of my friends who was black, an Afro-Caribbean, topped his class and did not get into the local grammar school—and my mother challenged the decision and asked for the reason, she was told “It’s complicated”. Fortunately, she persisted, and I got my place thanks to the help of my local Member of Parliament, who later became the late Lord Graham of Edmonton, may he rest in peace. So when I hear the response, “It’s complicated”, I hope noble Lords will understand that I am simply not satisfied with that answer. It is just not good enough any more. The purpose of my amendment is to probe the Government to understand what they know and what research they are aware of, so we can understand the reasons for these racial disparities and put in place measures to tackle them. If it is complicated, can the Government or NHS list the various reasons and say what they are going to do about it? As noble Lord after noble Lord has said, we need the data. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who is not in her place, reminded noble Lords that many of the answers from the Minister sound similar to the responses from 20 years ago. That is not a political point. I suspect that the answers given by the Minister, who is well liked and respected, would not be very different from the answers prepared by officials for any Health Minister of any party. Some of the answers are probably very similar to answers that I gave when I was a Minister. That is not to disrespect the diligent civil servants in the department, who work really hard, but we need answers to the following questions. What studies are the Government, DHSC and NHS aware of? What do we understand from the various studies? What secondary data do we have, and what are the known unknowns? What do we know that we need to know more about? Has there been any attempt from that secondary data to generate the questions for the primary research so that, once and for all, we can understand why a disproportionate number of black people are subject to community treatment orders and to being detained? Do the Government, DHSC or the NHS, if they have the data, know how to use it to reduce those disparities? If so, when will they begin to reduce these disparities? I was very pleased to hear a reference to some of the pilot schemes. Perhaps the Minister can refer to some of those schemes, and maybe that would be helpful. But I have to say that if the answers that we receive to these questions, either tonight or when the Minster writes to noble Lords between now and Report, are not adequate, I suspect that noble Lords will have to send the Minister back to the department to kick the tyres and get a better answer. It is as simple as that; otherwise, I am afraid that we will return to this issue on Report. If it comes to that, I hope that we will not see a Government urging noble Lords from the governing party to vote against an amendment that would seek to tackle these huge racial disparities in a methodical way and with an evidence-led approach. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

I thank noble Lords for the points they have made. I shall start with those from my noble friend Lady Whitaker regarding Amendments 63, 101, 107, 113, 116 and 124 and immediately address the point about the limited available data on Roma communities. I absolutely acknowledge that the data on Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities is indeed very limited. I emphasise that I say this not as an excuse; it is just what I have discovered. This is largely due to lower numbers, but we are working with NHSE to improve ethnicity reporting for all patients. More broadly, the Office for National Statistics is working with a range of government departments to undertake research into the barriers and enablers for this community in accessing a range of public services, including mental health services. Findings are expected later this year. I know my noble friend has been very active in pursuing this point and I am grateful to her for doing that. I hope that will be a generally helpful response. I add to all noble Lords that I absolutely agree that information, communication and support should be provided in a culturally appropriate manner. However, we do not believe that the amendments would achieve that aim, nor are they necessary. The duty to take cultural differences into account in how services are delivered is already enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. These existing duties are the legal basis for ensuring that services are culturally appropriate. That said, we absolutely acknowledge that, in practice, many services still fall short, but that is the position that we find ourselves having to tackle. This is where we need to strengthen guidance. The patient and carer race equality framework is already in place to strengthen the application of these principles, and we will strengthen guidance in the code to ensure that duties under the Equality Act are embedded in practice. We therefore believe that these amendments would not have any additional benefit above what is already in place and what is planned. On Amendment 65, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, we recognise that there are very significant disparities in the use of community treatment orders between different groups. This data is published as part of the annual Mental Health Act statistics. As the noble Baroness said, in 2023-24 it certainly was the case that patients from black and black British ethnic groups were around seven times more likely to be placed under a CTO than those from white groups. I add that patients from all minority ethnic groups are more likely to be subject to the use of a community treatment order than patients who are white. These disparities are explored in the impact assessment. The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, drew on his personal experience, for which I thank him. I am sorry that he has to bring that personal experience here, but of course it is the case that the battle against racism and racial disparities is far from over—I completely agree. I am sure he will have noted the commitments made by this Government to tackle racism and racial inequalities, particularly in the NHS and social care. The reality is—many noble Lords have spoken about this—that we are in a position where we have less data on outcomes and patient experience of being subject to community treatment orders. Officials are now working with NHS England and system partners to understand what additional data it would be wise and helpful to collect. We will cover CTOs in the planned independent evaluation of the reforms but, as ever, I have to share, in honesty, that it will take time to gather new data. A review after 12 months would be premature, not least because it would mean it was based on data from before any reforms commenced. I do not feel that that would be helpful. I assure noble Lords that, rather than committing in legislation to a review at a fixed date, we are committed to keeping existing and additional future data under review.

21:30:00

I think one of the reasons why people are asking for an open and transparent review—and, in some cases, one that reports back to Parliament—is that this is about not only the data but accountability for carrying out actions and implementation. That is the bit that is missing. Everything I have heard from the Minister on this subject so far—maybe she is coming on to say something else—suggests that without accountability, and overview and transparency of that accountability, the guidance is not going to work. Believe me, as somebody who used to work in the service: if you know that the Government were looking at this and that it was going to Parliament, it sends a powerful message for action to be taken in each individual unit. That is what is required, and I do not see that coming from the Minister’s answers. Can she tell me where that accountability streak will be, and how we, in this House and the other House, can put pressure on if the guidance is not being followed, based on the process she has outlined?

I understand the point the noble Lord makes. However, it does not lead me to accept the amendments. I understand the intent and I am sure noble Lords realise how sympathetic I am to it, but I repeat the point I made earlier: if one looks at what the amendment actually does, it will not serve that purpose. I take the point about transparency and accountability, and I hope the noble Lord has heard many times that that is very much the mode of direction. Perhaps it will be of some assistance to say that the PCREF will improve data collection on racial disparities over the coming year, and the CQC has existing duties to monitor and report on inequalities under the Act. We will continue to monitor racial disparities in the use of CTOs. That situation will be ongoing. If it is not doing the job that it is meant to do, we will not be complacent and will seek to act. We agree there is a need to improve organisational leadership—

Just before the Minister talks about that point, I understand her concern about the 12-month time limit, because it would be before the reforms are introduced. However, is she satisfied that there will be a robust baseline before the reforms are introduced so that we know what we are measuring against? Otherwise, in a few years’ time, we could be asking whether the reforms have worked, but we would not know because we did not have the baseline data. That is the starting point.

The noble Baroness is quite right: one has to be able to compare, and that baseline will be in place. You could collect all the data you like, but it has to be meaningful. Her point is well made. There is a need to improve organisational leadership to improve data collection and change culture across the mental health system. Again, this is exactly what the PCREF is designed to do and something we want to embed further through the revised code of practice. The creation of a responsible person was an additional recommendation from the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, and it is one we have considered in some detail. However, ultimately, we think that the role is not necessary, because it would duplicate existing roles and duties. There are already duties on providers of mental health services to identify and address inequalities relating to protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 and specifically the public sector equality duty. CQC already has a duty under the Mental Health Act to monitor as health services exercise their powers and discharge their duties when patients are detained in hospital or are subject to CTOs or guardianship. It publishes an annual report, Monitoring the Mental Health Act, which includes detailed commentary on inequalities. The PCREF is now part of the NHS standard contract. It has created new contractual obligations on providers to ensure that they have a framework in place to record and address racial inequality in mental health systems and to look at training and other policies to address racial disparities. Ultimately, we do not think that a responsible person is necessary to achieve all the aims, which are understood, set out in the amendment. Finally, I want to turn to Amendment 138 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and supported by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. We recognise, as I have said, that there are significant inequalities in the use of detention under the Mental Health Act and of CTOs between different minority-ethnic groups, and in particular the overrepresentation of black men. We monitor those inequalities through routinely published data and are improving this data through the PCREF. The CQC, as I have mentioned, reports on inequalities in its annual report under existing duties, but we agree that we lack robust evidence on what drives those inequalities, and that has been a matter of considerable debate in your Lordships’ House. We need to conduct research into this, and we are exploring with experts, including academic researchers, the best way to tackle it. I am concerned that two years is not enough time to scope and commission the report, collect and analyse new data, and form meaningful recommendations. Additionally, we hope that through improved decision-making under the reforms we will see a reduction in the number and proportion of black men who are subject to the Act and a reduction in racial disparities more generally. It is a major driver of why we introduced the Mental Health Bill. A report after two years feels premature, because it would be likely to be based in reality on data from before the reforms were commenced.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way and sorry for interrupting her flow again. The point about having a staging report after two years is to get ahead and upstream of what is happening rather than retrospectively being able to do stuff after it has gone on. Two years in management terms to be able to determine trends of intended or unintended consequences and then put different things in place is really important. I believe that this amendment, with a report back to Parliament, would send a very strong signal and allow the Government, the department and NHS England to pick up trends, even if it was not the total picture, which would determine different policies and practices and potential changes in the code as well as management action. I think that is what lies behind the noble Lord’s amendment.

I am sorry to interrupt at this time. I note that the noble Baroness thinks that 12 months is too short, and many noble Lords can perhaps see the point that two years is too short. Does the department have any idea of what a reasonable timeframe is? There has to be some accountability, as the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said. We could accept the warm words and the intentions of the Minister here tonight, but what happens if nothing changes? Where is the accountability? Can the Minister think about asking the department whether there is a reasonable timeframe for some meaningful research? I have supervised academic theses over time. You can have the one-year and then you go on to the three-year for PhD, and sometimes that is quite comprehensive data. There might be a meta study that could be done of lots of existing studies. First, what is a reasonable time? The noble Baroness does not have to answer now; it can be in writing. Secondly, if we let this go, how do we make sure there is accountability? How do we come back to this in three years or four years or five years? I look forward to the answer.

I was about to say that I do understand the need for pace, but I know that noble Lords understand the need to get this right and I know they are not suggesting that we should get it wrong. I will certainly be glad to look at the points that have been raised. I assure noble Lords that I do not want this to be warm words and I understand what noble Lords are seeking. I want to ensure that it is right and that the pace is right. I will look at the points raised because—although I do not think anyone is accusing me of this—it is the exact opposite of avoiding accountability and transparency; it is just about dealing about what is in the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked me a number of very pertinent questions and to do justice to them I will write to him. In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords—

Before the noble Baroness sits down, could I tease out from her a few words about the religious literacy point that myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, raised earlier? While we have rightly focused much on race and ethnicity this evening, which is important, I find that sometimes people take a pride in being religiously illiterate and in not paying attention to somebody’s faith in a way that they would probably not take a pride, as a professional, in not attending to somebody’s ethnic background. Does the Minister have a little word to say about that?

I suspect that the right reverend Prelate knows where I would be coming from on this. He and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, are quite right that consideration of one’s religion and religious practices and not making assumptions about them are absolutely crucial.

I thank my noble friend for her understanding of the crucial meaning of the data shortage and for her very helpful account of further work. The problem with relying on Gypsy, Roma and Traveller being covered by equality legislation guidance is that, unless they are specifically named as what they are, lots of people have no idea that they are there, that they are subject to an appalling level of discrimination and that they need a targeted response, directed—as it would be with a faith community or other community—at the reason they are so discriminated against. But, on the whole, I am glad that the Minister has got the point about so many things and I sense that she has sensed the depth of feeling raised in this very short debate. I will thank very briefly everyone who joined in. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, quite rightly pointed to the range of cultures that are potentially alienated by not being understood at all, as well as the need for data. I was very grateful for the support of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, because what he says is based on his real experience. I am very glad that my noble friend Lord Davies went on about the centrality of this issue; it is not a marginal add-on, it is part of our society. Of course, the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for more research and proper data is really essential. I enjoyed his note of hope and I hope very much that we will be able to continue it and increase the progress. I had better withdraw my amendment for the time being, but we may need to return to this.

Amendment 63 withdrawn.

Amendment 64 not moved.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed.

Clauses 21 and 22 agreed.

Amendments 65 to 67 not moved.

Clause 23 agreed.

House resumed.

House adjourned at 9.45 pm.