Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Committee (1st Day)

15:34:00

Clause 1: Power of Crown Estate Commissioners to borrow etc

Amendment 1

Moved by

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, at end insert— “(4B) The functions of the Crown Estate in Wales may not be exercised without the consent of the Welsh Government.”Member's explanatory statement This amendment would require that the Crown Estate must receive the consent of the Welsh Government before exercising its powers in Wales.

My Lords, I will move Amendment 1 and speak to Amendment 23, both of which are in my name. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for adding her name to the amendment, and of course to my noble friend Lady Smith of Llanfaes, who no doubt will wish to address Amendment 21 in her name, which I support. I also support Amendment 26 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, which we will come to later. At Second Reading, I outlined the case for the Crown Estate in Wales to be devolved as it is in Scotland. That is the subject of a Private Member’s Bill that I have awaiting a Second Reading debate. Although many of these amendments overlap with that fundamental approach, there are other amendments not going quite as far as full devolution proposals which, none the less, could help meet Welsh grievances regarding how it is widely seen that the Crown Estate, as currently administered, does not address Welsh needs or concerns, and, indeed, sucks valuable resources out of Wales. This issue has boiled up further since Second Reading, with a number of local authorities in Wales that are really strapped for cash, as indeed local authorities are in England, protesting at the bill demands which the Crown Estate makes of them. Let us take as an example the position of my own local authority, Gwynedd Council. This year it is being asked to pay a staggering bill of £160,000 to the Crown Estate to permit access to and full use of its own land and facilities within its own territory. The council has to pay the Crown Estate an annual rent for access to the beach in Bangor, Barmouth and Llanaber and a staggering £144,000 a year in rent relating to the marina in Pwllheli. Access to beaches touches a raw nerve in Wales; when private citizens have tried to close a footpath access, they have triggered massive protest and have had to back down. Yet the Crown is allowed to tell us that we have to pay for use of our own land and our own coast in our own country and can charge for the use of that privilege with impunity. Gwynedd Council now faces cutting back on other services to pay the Crown Estate. A motion was moved by councillor Dewi Llewelyn in full council meeting on 3 October, and the council resolved to refuse to pay this charge. The motion also called for the control of Crown Estate land and profits in Wales to be devolved to the Welsh Government. We await developments, but other councils in Wales are also now considering similar steps. No one can say that there has not been adequate warning that the Crown Estate issue in Wales is flaring up in the direction of taking the form of a Boston Tea Party. Conservative Governments over the past 10 years have known that this issue has been festering, but while they accepted the need to make adjustments in Scotland, which led to the devolving of the Crown Estate through the Scotland Act 2016, the situation in Wales was left to fester. This situation has been strenuously criticised by the Labour Government in the Senedd. I will not repeat the lengthy quotation which I presented to the House at Second Reading, when I drew attention to the words of the then Labour Climate Change Minister, Julie James, who, in a nutshell, said that the Crown Estate in Wales should be devolved, as in Scotland, and that the current situation is “outrageous”. Both the former First Minister, Mark Drakeford, and our erstwhile colleague, the current First Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, have also called for the Crown Estate to be devolved in Wales. In moving the first amendment, we are offering the Committee, and indeed the new Labour Government, an opportunity to take a small step towards redressing the balance. This does not provide for the full devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales, but it gives the Welsh Government a veto grip over the Crown Estate by way of the words which appear in the amendment: “The functions of the Crown Estate in Wales may not be exercised without the consent of the Welsh Government”. The mechanisms for granting that consent—indeed, for pinpointing the issues that would need to be addressed to secure that consent—can be open to negotiation between the Welsh Government and the Crown Estate. What this does is to establish beyond doubt that our Government in Wales will have the final word on such matters. I will briefly mention Amendment 23, standing in my name and supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Llanfaes and Lady Humphreys, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. It also provides a mechanism, short of devolving the full Crown Estate to Wales, to require the Crown Estate to pass to the Welsh Government all the net profit that it has generated from Wales; and thereby to enable the Welsh Government to pass an appropriate part of such funds to the local authorities that I mentioned to ensure that they are not out of pocket from the bills that they have to pay to the Crown Estate. The Labour Government at Westminster should be delighted to facilitate developments provided by the amendment, which I have highlighted. If they are not, they will need to make a very persuasive case because, if these modest proposals are not acceptable, the only answer might be for the devolution—lock, stock and barrel—of the Crown Estate in Wales to Wales, as has been the case in Scotland. I welcome support for these proposals from all quarters of the Committee and I await the Minister’s response with fascination. I beg to move.

My Lords, I support Amendment 21 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I do so as a former Labour Secretary of State for Wales who was responsible for the 2006 devolution Act. Before that, as a Welsh Minister, I, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others, was closely involved in winning the 1997 referendum, which brought in the 1998 devolution Act to establish the Welsh Assembly, now Senedd. I have also lived in Wales for 34 years now. Welsh Labour’s programme for government in the Senedd includes a commitment to pursue the devolution of powers needed to help reach net zero, including management of the Crown Estate in Wales. The Crown Estate is devolved in Scotland; surely there is no reason why the same powers should not be devolved to Wales, especially by a new Westminster Labour Government committed to partnership rather than confrontation with the devolved Administrations. That was the essence of the Prime Minister’s message to the special summit of the nations and regions last Friday, and in visiting Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in July within days of moving into Downing Street. The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales recommended that the Crown Estate be devolved, and Welsh Labour is committed to working with UK Labour in government to implement the recommendations from that commission. Taking control of the management of Crown Estate assets in Wales would allow the Welsh Government greater autonomy over the speed and direction of the development of Welsh-sited Crown Estate property. The Welsh Government would have the opportunity to better align the management of Crown assets in Wales with the needs of Welsh citizens. The management of Crown assets also generates significant revenue to the UK Exchequer. Devolution of the Crown Estate would better align revenues from Wales with the income available for the Welsh Government to deliver on their priorities for Welsh citizens. Marine planning is a holistic, statutory process for managing the UK’s seas including the seabed. Aligning Welsh marine planning with seabed leasing rounds for new developments, such as renewable energy, would help to ensure joined-up and plan-led decision-making. Currently, there are stand-alone leasing rounds for certain types of activity, such as offshore wind or marine aggregates extraction. These leasing rounds, which occur from time to time, take account of relevant government policy, but devolution of the Crown Estate to Scotland has allowed a reshaping of the process, whereby the marine planning process sets the overall policy direction with leasing rounds only progressed after it has set national strategic policy. This ensures that marine management is better joined up and delivered. Taking control of the management of the seabed would allow Welsh Government Ministers both to better implement their policy decisions and priorities for the marine area and to ensure that all relevant interests can be reflected in a way that is simply not as possible with a top-heavy, centralised and London-centric agenda.

15:45:00

A key consideration for the devolution of the Crown Estate is, of course, appropriate resources for the Welsh Government. In Scotland, even prior to devolution in 1999, there had already been an established Crown Estate team in Scotland. However, that is not the case in Wales, so this devolution would need to come with the appropriate resource for a new team to manage Crown Estate assets in Wales.

There would also need to be agreement on how Welsh government funding through the Treasury block grant would change as a result of a new revenue stream coming to Wales from income from Crown assets. In Scotland, the adjustment to the Scottish Government block grant is set out in their fiscal framework agreed alongside the adjustment required to account for the devolution of tax powers. Presumably there would need to be a negotiated revised fiscal framework for Wales, and I accept that this will not be done right now, given the tremendous financial pressures that my right honourable friend the Chancellor is grappling with.

The final report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales recommended that:

“The Welsh and UK Governments should establish an expert group to advise urgently on how the devolution settlement and inter-governmental engagement in relation to energy could be reformed to prepare for rapid technical innovation in energy generation and distribution, to ensure that Wales can maximise its contribution to net zero and to the local generation of renewable energy. The remit of the group should include advising on the options for the devolution of the Crown Estate, which should become the responsibility of the devolved government of Wales as it is in Scotland”.

The commission found that Welsh and UK Governments’ overlapping responsibilities on energy would work much better with stronger consultation and co-operation, with the Welsh Government as an equal partner. The commission concluded that:

“Energy generation and distribution is an area where the binary devolved or reserved nature of the devolution settlement does not sit easily with the practical realities of delivery”.

Huw Irranca-Davies, Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, told the Senedd on 17 July 2024, that

“we really welcome the opportunity to collaborate now with the UK Government on the proposals and the progression towards the devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales, which remains our aspiration. There are details that have to be worked out on that as well, but I think the positive engagement that we’ve seen so far from the UK Government on maximising the benefits of the way that the Crown Estate operates currently within Wales bodes well for the future”.

In addition to what he said, Rebecca Evans, then Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, said on 10 July 2024 in the Senedd:

“The Welsh Government has been very clear that we accepted all of the recommendations of the constitutional commission’s report, and we still absolutely accept those. And there are several things for us to be getting on with in that report, such as .... our position on the Crown Estate”.

The Welsh Government added:

“Our longstanding position is that the Crown Estate should be devolved to Wales in line with the position in Scotland. We have been clear that the current devolution settlement for energy limits our ability to deliver policy in Wales in a way that reflects our policy priorities and the needs of future generations. We welcome .... the broader emphasis on improving intergovernmental relations given the interactions between UK government policy and devolved policy with respect to energy and climate change”.

Welsh Labour’s case is that devolving the Crown Estate is vital so that profits from leasing land for energy projects can be retained in Wales as they are in Scotland.

I understand that it has been argued in the past, on behalf of the previous Conservative Government, that introducing a “new entity”—as they described it—to manage the Crown Estate in Wales would

“fragment the market, complicate existing processes, and likely delay further development offshore, undermining investment in Welsh waters”.

Frankly, that reflects old, centralised, conservative, anti-devolution Whitehall thinking.

I hope that there will be fresh thinking from this new Labour Government, although I fully recognise that the impossible financial predicament inherited from the bankrupt Tory Government means that finding the money to devolve management of the Crown Estate to Wales at this time would be very difficult. I also understand that this matter is not currently a priority, given all the other matters on health, education and local government that certainly are. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend the Minister, when he replies, will give me some encouragement that discussions will now take place with Welsh Labour First Minister Eluned Morgan—my noble friend Lady Morgan—and her colleagues on their firm desire to see powers over the Crown Estate devolved to Wales in the future, as they have long been in Scotland.

My Lords, my Amendment 21 is included in this group. I endorse the contribution made by my noble friend Lord Wigley in making the case for the other amendments in this group, and thank him for supporting my amendment. I will now speak to Amendment 21. I spoke at Second Reading outlining why the Bill, as drafted, does not deliver fairness for Wales. Therefore, I will not repeat my case today. However, I will highlight that at Second Reading there appeared to be a sense of agreement from around the House that Wales was not being treated fairly when it comes to powers over the Crown Estate—in particular, the stark contrast between the powers given to Scotland but not to Wales. Amendment 21 simply aims to resolve this unfairness and would transfer the management of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government within two years of commencement of this Act. Devolving these powers would also support the Welsh Government in the delivery of policies in the areas already in their control, such as energy and the environment. This lever would open up more opportunities to deliver for the people of Wales. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his support of this amendment and for his contribution, and to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, for adding his name to it. A move to devolve this power is supported by many in Wales, including senior colleagues in Wales of the new Labour Government here. Additionally, the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales also recommends that the devolution of the Crown Estate is progressed, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, outlined. Campaigning for this change has heated up across all parts of Wales in recent months. In addition to Cyngor Gwynedd’s motion, which my noble friend Lord Wigley raised, we have seen similar motions passed by Swansea Council, and I expect momentum to build across Wales if no progress continues to be made. This amendment offers this Committee and the new Labour Government an opportunity to make that progress, right this wrong and deliver fairness to Wales. This amendment goes hand in hand with Amendment 23 in this group, which I support, as Wales must also receive the profits that result from the use of the land in Wales. These profits should be invested directly into the communities of Wales. I welcome support for this group of amendments from all corners of this Chamber, and I look forward to hearing the Government’s response.

My Lords, unusually, as a former Treasury official, I am generally in favour of greater devolution—the more so when the likes of the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Wigley, and my noble and learned friend Lord Thomas support a proposal. But on this occasion I fear I should advocate a degree of caution. I speak having been in the Treasury when the Crown Estate in Scotland was devolved. With hindsight, I think that was a mistake, particularly because there is considerable benefit in looking at offshore wind policy at a UK level. Indeed, the then Government missed a trick. They should have followed the example of I think the Wilson Government in the 1960s, who hived off oil sea exploration from the Crown Estate. The then coalition Government should have hived off offshore wind from the Crown Estate, not least because it gives the Royal Family, who no doubt are a deserving cause, a massive windfall, as my noble friend Lord Turnbull pointed out at Second Reading. Although I very much understand the case that noble Lords have made on both sides of the House, I think this is something that should not be rushed. There may be a case for devolving further powers to Wales, not least because there is a case for giving Wales similar treatment to Scotland. But if the Government are sympathetic to this amendment, I encourage them to spend a bit more time working through whether there are unintended consequences and, in particular, looking through the financial implications. One thing I would not want to see happen is Wales being disadvantaged financially by devolution. This might be the right thing to do for the longer term, but I encourage the Minister to think twice before agreeing to it today.

My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships for not having taken part in the Second Reading debate. I also draw your Lordships’ attention to my registered interests and my membership of the board of Community and Voluntary Support Conwy, CVSC. I rise to speak to Amendment 26 in my name and Amendments 1, 21 and 23 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes. My Amendment 26 calls for the devolution of the Crown Estate’s powers to Wales and would require the Treasury to devolve Welsh functions of the Crown Estate commissioners to Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers. There are increasing calls within Wales for the devolution of these powers. It is a policy of my party, the Welsh Liberal Democrats, having been debated and agreed in our Welsh conference in 2023. It would ensure that the profit from offshore energy lease agreements stays in Wales. In July 2023, Senedd Members voted by a majority of 35 to 13 in favour of a Plaid Cymru debate calling for the devolution of the Crown Estate to the Welsh Government. As we have heard, there are similar calls at local government level. Last week, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, detailed, councillors in Gwynedd Council debated a motion asking their chief executive to open negotiations with the Crown Estate over “access fees”. The council paid its annual fee of £161,000 to the Crown Estate in 2023 to allow public access to beaches in Gwynedd, of which £144,000 was paid to allow access to Hafan Pwllheli marina. Councillors also believed that responsibility for the Crown Estate should be devolved to the Welsh Government, with their motion stating: “Any profits generated by the Crown Estate, here on Welsh lands and waters, should remain in Wales, for the benefit of our residents and communities”. In addition to all this, social media videos provide information about the Crown Estate and explain why the promoters want change, leading to greater awareness of the issue among the public. The Crown Estate owns land estimated to be worth more than £600 million in Wales. This includes 65% of the coast of Wales and 300,000 acres of land, including any gold and silver on it. Profits on these numbers are unclear, however. Let me be clear: there is no criticism of the Crown Estate commissioners implicit in this amendment. The commissioners operate within a system that was established 63 years ago but with a history going back to 1760, and they cannot diverge from the status quo without an Act of Parliament similar to that which devolved similar powers to Scotland in 2017. So, while the commissioners operate the system from the 1960s, history for us in Wales has moved on. Devolution has opened the eyes of the people in Wales to the opportunities and responsibilities that the new order has brought.

16:00:00

My colleagues and I are ambitious for Wales. We envisage a Celtic Sea powerhouse, building on the success of renewable energy projects around our coast. We see how the offshore wind industry offers the potential to help revive local economies in coastal communities. We see the need to develop the production of wind turbines within Wales, taking advantage of the industrial infrastructure already in place. However, we want those decisions about the use of our resources to be made in Wales by our politicians.

My Amendment 26 has a similar outcome to Amendment 21 in the name of Baroness Smith of Llanfaes, but mine does not include a timeframe for the transference of powers to the Welsh Government. The report of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales asserts:

“By 2030, The Crown Estate’s functions in Wales should be completely devolved to a new body that has as its principal aim the reinvestment of all funds in Wales for the long-term benefits of the people of Wales”.

“By 2030” is a timeframe I am more comfortable with; it allows time for the Welsh Government to persuade the UK Government of the merits of their case. I hope that the party that gave us our valued and, some would say, precious devolution settlement will be in listening mode and introduce the necessary legislation. It is of course disappointing that no discussions have taken place between the two Governments prior to the introduction of this Bill. Perhaps the Minister can update us on the situation, if other discussions have taken place.

The next Welsh general election, in 18 months’ time, will herald a new, larger Senedd with an improved capacity for more efficient scrutiny and the potential to take on more responsibilities and powers. Like all Governments, whether they have been in power for 14 years or merely 100 days, the Welsh Government have had to deal with serious issues and unforced errors over recent years. The criticism of their running of the Welsh NHS will inevitably have an impact on those who work in it. As we wait for improvements in the Welsh Government’s performance, I pay tribute to the doctors, nurses and ancillary staff who work in our GP surgeries and hospitals and in the community. They save lives and make lives better every day, sometimes in difficult circumstances.

Whatever the composition of our new Senedd, I hope that the increase in Members will mean a return to the surefootedness of earlier years, when the National Assembly, as it was then, dealt efficiently and competently with EU objective 1 funding. Our enlarged new Senedd will have the confidence to carry out an increased number of functions, including the devolved Welsh functions of the Crown Estate commissioners. Many of us will continue to press for the devolution of further powers to Welsh Ministers, including the devolution of justice. Over 25 years we were told that devolution is a process, not an event. I hope those words come to fruition.

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith Llanfaes, respectively. I do so, following what has been said by a number of others on some detailed points, because there is an important constitutional issue and an interesting constitutional test for this Government. It seems clear to me that in our union, it is accepted as things stand that the Crown Estate is not a union function. That is shown by the fact that it has been devolved to Scotland and therefore is quite unlike monetary policy, defence or other matters that are union functions. I see the powerful argument, advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, that our constitution should be slightly different—that this should be seen as an energy issue and reserved to the central Government—but this is not the current position and we must address things as they are. Therefore, it is very clear that when the Government look at this question, they must do so from the point of the constitution. This is a power capable of devolution and the question therefore arises, if it can be devolved to Scotland, why is it not devolved to Wales? It is also important that we stand at a turning point in devolution. I had hoped, and still hope, that the advent of this new Government means that we think for the first time in a long time about the structure of our union—that we look on it as something that should be based on principle and good co-operation between the nations. The latter is extremely important in this policy area, bearing in mind the current constitutional structure. I keep on using the word “constitutional” because we sometimes forget that what is critical to our country is good governance based on a sound constitution. It is said by the Scottish authority that runs the Crown Estate that they “invest in property, natural resources and people to generate lasting value for Scotland”. Why cannot that be given to Wales? It has been said in the past that the Welsh are not up to it, or that London knows better. I am delighted that those arguments are not being run, and I hope they are consigned to the dustbin of history. However, the Minister said the following on Second Reading: “devolving … would significantly risk fragmenting the energy market, undermining international investor confidence and delaying the progress towards net zero by … 10 to 20 years, to the detriment of the whole nation”.—[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1021.] That is similar to what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, quoted in relation to the position of the last Government. So much, possibly, for new thinking. It is important to analyse those phrases; there is no evidence to support any of them. I hope it is not unkind to say that the use of the phrase “undermining investor confidence” is often the resort of a politician in distress. Even if there was anything in any of these points, their argument does not touch on the issue of principle: that the management of the Crown property in Wales, historically acquired by the English Crown from the Welsh people, should be for the people of Wales and the money obtained should be transparently accounted for as a distinct amount and used for their benefit, in a way decided by the Government of Wales. Those are two key points of the devolution of the Crown Estate: management and money. If it is good enough for the Scots, why is it not right for the Welsh? It will be interesting to see how the Minister argues that specific point of constitutional principle. The Minister knows, from his own considerable experience, that it is of course possible to run things in co-operation. What is promised by this new Government is a new approach to the union: co-operation between the Governments in Edinburgh, Cardiff, Belfast and London. If there are benefits from matters such as gearing up together to deal with the energy market then that is possible through joint ventures or other arrangements, but it in no way detracts, it seems to me, from the issues of principle—that the management of property in Wales should be for the Welsh Government and the money should go back to Wales. In relation to that, as someone who comes from the industrial area of Wales, I know it is important to recall what happened in the last century and the century before last. Wales possessed enormous mineral wealth that drove the supplies of energy which powered our industrial revolution. Let us hope that now that there are alternative means of generating the power that is driving our present economy, the people of Wales will not be short-changed as they have been in the past.

My Lords, as a follow-on to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said in relation to Wales, if the Crown Estate is devolved to Scotland, why should it not be devolved to Northern Ireland? The Crown Estate plays a critical role in the stewardship of our seas and terrestrial environment. As well as large landholdings, the estate manages the seabed around England, Wales and Northern Ireland, along with 50% of our coastline, and it will support the tripling of the electricity sector’s capacity, with the deployment of 125 gigawatts of offshore wind by 2050. During Second Reading, I pointed out that, in the Northern Ireland context, the electricity industry is managed on an all-island basis, north-south, through the all-Ireland electricity market. I received a very helpful response from the Minister, my noble friend Lord Livermore, in relation to this issue. Could he give some thought to the devolution of the Crown Estate to Northern Ireland, in the context of the electricity market and how the electricity supply is managed? Can he say whether there will be a connection and co-operation with the Irish Government on the Great British energy market and the all-Ireland energy market and the Irish Sea?

My Lords, briefly, I support these amendments. I get involved, along with many other noble Lords, in offshore energy issues, particularly in Cornwall. I can see a time coming when there will be enormous pressure on central government as to where these great big tanks—the floating windmills or whatever you want to call them—are manufactured, where they are located, from where they are serviced and, probably most important of all, where the power lines come ashore. There has already been lots of talk about Port Talbot as the only possible place for their manufacture for the south-west. There is lots of flat land there and it is probably very good, but, living in Cornwall, I would like to make sure that some benefits come to the ports in Cornwall from some of those issues. It would seem, from what many noble Lords have said, that there is a strong argument for drawing a line down the Bristol Channel out to the medium and sticking to it, then using that line for any kind of debate or discussion that takes place on offshore oil or offshore wind, or anything else like that. If not, we are going to have this kind of debate every time: “How much does Wales get?”, “How much does Cornwall get?”, “How much does Devon get?”. It would be much better if it was agreed—I am not sure by whom, but there has to be someone in this Government—where this line was and everything that leads from there. While I am on my feet, I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister where the Duchy of Cornwall and its offshore or beach interests come into this, if at all. The Duchy of Cornwall has the right to treasure trove if treasure is found in Cornwall, and that goes into the coffers of the Duke of Cornwall—as opposed to in the rest of the country, where it would go into the coffers of the Government. Again, it would be nice to know where the boundaries are. It would be much easier to have a good debate about them if we knew where the start and finish were.

16:15:00

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Humphreys spoke not just for the Welsh Liberal Democrats but for all of us on these Benches. At Second Reading I, among others, raised the significance of devolution to Wales and asked that this should come as rapidly as possible, for a variety of reasons which have been discussed today. I do not want to repeat arguments but there are a couple of points I will pick up. First, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, that this nonsense that the money for the monarchy is then translated into a percentage of the profits that come from the Crown Estate is idiosyncratic and should stop right now. These are two entirely different sets of decisions, and we should separate them. I hope the Government will at some point in the process of the Bill deal with that particular nonsense—if not, if they could deal with it in the Budget that would be extremely helpful. Secondly, the Crown Estate of the past is not the Crown Estate of the future. In the past we have had a body that has been focused on property management, very gradually getting into economic growth, levelling up and sustainability; now, the borrowing powers envisaged make for a complete step-change in that area. Not having the proper authority resting with the Welsh Government that devolution would provide therefore becomes far more egregious than it has been historically. The time has definitely come to recognise that, with this Bill, we are changing in many ways the character of the Crown Estate and its level of activity. It is time, therefore, to make the appropriate step and ensure that Wales and the Welsh voice are properly reflected through the Welsh Government’s control of the Crown Estate in Wales. Thirdly, my last point is one that was reflected in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and somewhat in the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas. The argument has always been put that, if we split off the Crown Estate in Wales, we are building in an inefficiency, particularly within the energy sector: we would have another player; it would be more complicated; and the management would be somewhat split. It made me interested to take a look at the Crown Estate in Scotland. The Committee will be aware from various speeches that the assets controlled by the Crown Estate in both England and Wales are in the arena of £15 billion—it is a huge asset bloc. In Scotland, the bloc is far smaller. I looked at the last annual report and found that it is about £650 million in assets. I would guess that Wales is not that much smaller. In other words, we know that Scotland is functioning well—I hear no complaints from voices in Scotland about the way that the Crown Estate is working under the auspices of the Scottish Government—and so I see no reason why there would be necessary inefficiencies by splitting off a similarly sized set of assets to be governed by the Welsh Government. Building collaboration is obviously the answer. To pick up the point the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, made, collaboration and co-operation is the language that this Government are continually using and the approach that my party supports. It underpins a sense of democracy and fair dealing, which is very important in modern-day politics. I hope that the Government will look again at this and, if they cannot make changes in this specific Bill, promise that those changes are coming, and coming soon.

My Lords, I am enormously grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken before me in this debate today. Predominantly, this is obviously around the devolution of powers over the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government. On these Benches, we have thought long and hard about this, and I hear the concerns of some noble Lords about how the devolved powers differ between Wales and Scotland and, indeed, Northern Ireland. But this is not a unique situation and I have concluded that I would encourage the Minister to resist any change at this time. A number of noble Lords have raised certain challenges as to why this might be a good or a bad idea, and I look at this in a purely practical sense. If I look at the documents that have been provided and are available not only for the Crown Estate but also the Crown Estate’s relationship with GB Energy—the enormous commitment that the Crown Estate has made in terms of the amount of seabed licences it wishes to grant to enable energy generation by 2030—I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that change is coming and coming very significantly for the Crown Estate. In 10 years’ time, it is not going to look the same as it does now. Therefore, I think that we would introduce risk into what is already a very ambitious target set down by the Government to develop offshore wind should we be sidetracked by the desire to devolve limited powers over the Crown Estate at this time. It is also worth bearing in mind that the Crown Estate is very clear in its documents—and I think the Committee will discuss this a bit more later—that it is an independent business and competes against the private sector. Splitting it at this time and taking out a chunk of the assets and going through all the procedures as to how you recognise those assets—as pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—and how you think about which revenue streams go where would be a sideshow. I note the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, but I am going to run with it slightly. At the moment, the Labour-run Welsh Government do not have the best record of governance. Of course, that might improve in the future and progress may well be made, so I conclude by saying that we encourage the Minister to resist these amendments and we believe that they would be unwise at this time.

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate in response to the amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Hain, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys. I hope to be able to explain the Government’s rationale for retaining the existing structure of the Crown Estate. First, let me set out how the Crown Estate currently operates and why the Government believe this remains the best approach. The Crown Estate Act 1961 requires the Crown Estate commissioners to manage the Crown Estate as a commercial enterprise to enhance long-term value and generate profit and to do so with due regard to the requirements of good management. A key purpose of the 1961 Act was to repeal various detailed statutory provisions that had built up over 150 years previously which were hampering the effective management of the estate. By focusing the commissioners’ duties on enhancing the estate’s value and the returns generated, the commissioners have a clear objective for which they can be held to account. While the Crown Estate has goals which under its own strategy align with wider national policy objectives, the 1961 Act provides the Crown Estate with independence and autonomy to set and achieve its goals. The Government believe that the Crown Estate should continue to operate in this way, as a commercial business independent from government, because it has shown itself to be a trusted and successful organisation, with a proven track record in effective management. The Crown Estate is multibillion-pound public corporation, which is required to pay its profits into the UK Consolidated Fund each year, worth more than £4 billion over the past decade. Those revenues are then allocated to public service priorities by the Government, subject to the usual parliamentary controls. That is a valuable outcome, which we need to be careful not to undermine. I turn to the amendments that deal with devolving the Crown Estate in Wales. I fully recognise that there are now two Labour Governments in the UK. While I believe that there is greater benefit for the people of Wales and the wider United Kingdom in retaining the Crown Estate’s current form, I shall of course continue to discuss these issues with the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that Wales sees the full benefits of the Crown Estate and other forms of investment. In response to the arguments made by noble Lords during this debate, I make a number of points. First, devolving the Crown Estate to Wales would most likely require the creation of a new entity to take on the role of the Crown Estate in Wales. This by definition would not benefit from the Crown Estate’s current substantial capability, capital and systems abilities. As my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, referred to, this would indeed further fragment the UK energy market by adding an additional entity and, as a consequence, it would risk damaging international investor confidence in UK renewables and disrupting the National Energy System Operator’s grid connectivity reform, which is taking a whole-systems approach to the planning of generation and network infrastructure. That reform aims to create a more efficient system and reduce the waiting times for generation projects to connect to the grid. The cumulative impact of these effects would likely delay the pathway to net zero by decades. Furthermore, the Crown Estate’s marine investments are currently made on a portfolio-wide basis across England and Wales. To devolve to Wales would disrupt these existing investments, since they would need to be restructured to accommodate a Welsh-specific entity. Let me give two examples. The first is the Crown Estate’s £50 million supply chain accelerator, which will match-fund early stage projects related to offshore wind leasing round 5, and the £50 million investment in the offshore wind evidence and change programme, which brings together government bodies, the industry and key stakeholders from across the UK to better understand environmental impacts of offshore wind.

The Minister has explained the need for a restructure. As Scotland has devolution of this dimension already, clearly it is not impossible for people to come together after devolution for Wales, too.

I shall go on to address some of those points further in my speech. To devolve the Crown Estate at this time would also risk jeopardising the existing pipeline of offshore wind development in the Celtic Sea planned into the 2030s. The Crown Estate’s offshore wind leasing round 5 is spread across the English and Welsh administrative boundaries in the Celtic Sea. It was launched in February this year and is expected to contribute 4.5 gigawatts of total energy capacity, or enough to power 4 million homes. In addition to energy, the extensive jobs and supply-chain requirements of round 5 will also likely deliver significant benefits for Wales and the wider UK. Lumen, an advisory firm to the Crown Estate, has estimated that manufacturing, transporting and assembling the wind farms could potentially create around 5,300 jobs and create a £1.4 billion boost for the UK economy. As I have said, devolution would also delay UK-wide grid connectivity reform. The Crown Estate is using its data and expertise as managers of the seabed to feed into the National Energy System Operator’s new strategic spatial energy plan. For Wales, the Crown Estate is working in partnership with the energy system operator to ensure that its current pipeline of Welsh projects, the biggest of which is the round 5 offshore wind opportunity in the Celtic Sea, can benefit from this co-ordinated approach to grid connectivity up front. Introducing a new entity, which would have control of assets only within Wales, into this complex operating environment, where partnerships have already been formed, would not make commercial sense. Secondly, the Crown Estate’s assets and interests in Wales, as compared to its assets in England, are of a fundamentally smaller magnitude, which would very likely not be commercially viable if the costs were unsupported by the wider Crown Estate portfolio. The Crown Estate, in its present form, has the ability to take a longer-term approach to its investments and spread the costs of those investments across its entire portfolio. A self-contained, single entity in Wales would not have the same ability, nor would it benefit from the expertise that the Crown Estate has developed over decades in delivering offshore wind at scale. A devolved entity would be starting from scratch, midway through a multimillion-pound commercial tendering process, at a time when the Crown Estate is undertaking critical investment in the UK’s path towards net zero.

16:30:00

For instance, the commercial viability of all three 1.5 gigawatt floating offshore wind project development areas in the Celtic Sea, which straddle the English and Welsh administrative boundaries, benefited from the Crown Estate’s significant investment of time, expertise and capital to enable entry to market. UK floating offshore wind, which is an emerging offshore technology that the Crown Estate is supporting, will be particularly vulnerable to such market disruption.

Thirdly, income generated by the whole Crown Estate portfolio currently benefits the people of Wales. As I have already noted, the Crown Estate pays its entire net profits into the UK Consolidated Fund each year, which both enables those revenues to fund UK government spending in reserved areas in Wales—for example, in policing—and supports the funding provided through the block grant. In comparison, if Wales were to benefit only from the income generated in Wales, then it would likely be zero or negligible for several decades to come. Welsh assets are relatively new and will take time to mature, likely in the order of 10 to 15 years. The Crown Estate has shown itself to be a trusted and successful organisation with a proven track record in both effective management and profit generation, which are valuable outcomes that we need to be careful not to undermine.

In answer to my noble friend Lady Ritchie, the Crown Estate is working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive and agreed a statement of intent last year confirming their joint aspirations towards establishing offshore wind leasing for Northern Ireland. I will write to my noble friend Lord Berkeley about the boundaries of the Duchy of Cornwall.

In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on royal funding, the sovereign grant is currently set by reference to 12% of Crown Estate profits; however, the Sovereign Grant Act includes a statutory requirement to review every five years the percentage rate used in this calculation to determine whether it remains appropriate. This review is conducted by the three royal trustees. Where necessary, the Government lay a statutory instrument to amend the percentage used. For example, following the royal trustees’ review last year, the rate was cut from 25% to the current 12%, and the next review will begin in 2026.

Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would require that

“The functions of the Crown Estate in Wales may not be exercised without the consent of the Welsh Government”.

The Crown Estate operates independently from government and, as such, does not currently require the consent of any Government for the exercise of its functions. The Crown Estate does not, for example, require the consent of the Treasury or Parliament to exercise its functions in England. Such an amendment would therefore give the Welsh Government disproportionate control over part of the Crown Estate, out of step with England and Northern Ireland. Further, if the wording of the amendment were interpreted as giving the Welsh Government the ability to block the Crown Estate from, for example, exiting loss-making or lower value activities, this could conflict with the core statutory duty of the Crown Estate commissioners to enhance the long-term value of the estate as well as hinder their ability to move into other activities in Wales.

Amendment 23, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would require the Crown Estate commissioners to

“transfer all net profit generated from the Crown Estate’s activities in Wales to the Welsh Government on an annual basis”.

As the Crown Estate’s operations are not divided into business units for each nation, agreeing the exact net profit figure attributable to Wales is not straightforward, because most of the associated costs cannot easily be disentangled from the Crown Estate’s overall costs and would, in places, require subjective judgment. Further, as I have already set out, given that the Crown Estate takes a long-term approach to investments, it is anticipated that its investments in Wales could take up to 10 to 15 years to see an appropriate return. Therefore, if net profits were transferred to the Welsh Government now, they are likely to be zero or negligible.

I hope that these explanations have been helpful and that I have provided some clarity on these points. I hope that the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Hain, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys, will not press their amendments as a result.

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I want to ask him specifically about what he said in relation to Welsh Government Ministers. I pressed him hard to talk to Welsh Government Ministers and consult on this matter. Nobody expects this to be done overnight or, indeed, relatively soon, given everything else and what he has said, but that seems to me the crucial thing which would release me from an obligation at least to press this on Report.

I am very happy to reiterate what I said: I will, of course, discuss these issues with the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that Wales sees the full benefits of the Crown Estate and other forms of investment.

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, listened to that response, as I did, with some amusement. If the line that the Minister is going to take in discussion with Welsh Ministers, who have very strong opinions on this matter, is the line that he has taken in responding to this debate, there is quite clearly not going to be a meeting of minds. We are talking about a Labour Government in Cardiff and a Labour Government in London, and this is going to be the backdrop to the politics that are running through the next few years, including the run-up to the 2026 election. I beseech the Minister to think more carefully about the way he is handling this. The way in which the Crown Estate has been devolved in Scotland has not caused immense difficulties. They have been able to disaggregate the things that need to be disaggregated. It has been possible for the Scottish Government to get the benefits they need. The most important thing that I regard as coming from this sort of structural change is to give the Welsh Government the levers and powers—and the encouragement—to take initiatives themselves, to maximise the economic return that they can get in Wales and thereby to generate the income we need to run our government services. We do not want to be for ever and a day coming with cap in hand to the Treasury in Whitehall, begging for money. On that point, perhaps it was the same noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, who was at the Treasury in 2010-11, when the Welsh Government had aggregated £400 million from money they had not spent on a revenue basis, in order to have a capital fund to build hospitals and schools, and the Treasury took back the whole £400 million. Being careful how they spent money at year end was a policy that the Labour Government in Wales could be proud of, but that is what the Treasury did to us. The Treasury is still, with the same game, trying to stop us taking initiatives on our own behalf to sort out our own problems. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who made a persuasive argument, and I hope we return to these matters on Report. I was naturally grateful to my noble friend Baroness Smith of Llanfaes—she will possibly come in on other debates on these matters. I realise where the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, comes from on these issues. I too had a financial background; I was a financial controller in manufacturing industry and I know the responsibilities that go with finance. I also know the need to have the incentive and inducement to create the money that can then be used for the social services and all the other responsibilities of government —that is what we want to trigger and encourage in Wales. I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for her substantial speech, which laid out her party’s view. I am glad to see that the Labour Party in the Senedd Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru stand together on this, and, indeed, a number of Conservatives there do too, which perhaps Conservative colleagues could bear in mind. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, excellently summed up the whole thing. The problem that we have had down the years when it has come to wanting to take responsibility for doing things for ourselves rather than always going cap in hand to others to bail us out is that we are told we cannot do it, or that it will cut across the unity or the way the commercial sector sees it, et cetera. We have got to be able to stand on our own two feet, whether it is in the context of the structures of government we have now or different ones. As in the case of Scotland, we want to stand on our two feet and be able to pay our way in the world, and at least take responsibility on our own shoulders for doing that. I take the point about Northern Ireland made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, and, indeed, Northern Ireland is mentioned in some of these amendments. There is, of course, a need for a co-ordinated approach, but that does not mean that we have all to be lumped together under one overarching structure. The whole point of devolution is to give power and responsibility to those who are best placed to make the most of it, and, in this context, to develop and use our own resources. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned the situation in Cornwall, where there are resources that can be used and maximised for, I hope, the benefit of the people of Cornwall rather than for profits to be syphoned off elsewhere. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, mentioned our experience with coal, where we were left with the coal tips, industrial disease and all the environmental problems to clear up at our own cost, but when we try to do something about it, we are told we are not capable of doing so. Quite frankly, that is not acceptable. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for painting her party’s viewpoint on a UK basis so clearly. Obviously, the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, is not one I identify with; I am not entirely surprised as we have had such responses from Conservative Governments for many years. I am, however, surprised at the response from the Labour Front Bench, where we would have hoped for more. There is currently a shortfall in the Welsh budget of some £250 million a year, which the Government are going to have to find. There is also an increasing dynamic to that figure: it will reach some £750 million by 2028. We want to be able to do something about it ourselves, so why do they not give us the tools we need to do the job when we are willing to take the responsibility to do it? I beseech the Labour Government to look at this again between now and Report. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, suggested, they should speak to colleagues in Cardiff and try to get a solution that enables us to do more to help ourselves, rather than telling us for ever and a day to come with a begging bowl and hope that somebody will bail us out. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

Amendment 2

Moved by

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 17, after “loans” insert “of no more than £150 million” Member’s explanatory statement This amendment would place a cap on the amount the Commissioners may borrow.

My Lords, in moving Amendment 2 I will speak also to Amendment 5. Together, they seek to place a cap of £150 million on the amount of money that Crown Estate commissioners may borrow. To be clear, we broadly welcome and support the measures proposed in the Bill. My amendments do not change the purpose of the Bill; they are simply about the need for parliamentary oversight and scrutiny over the new borrowing powers and how they will be exercised in practice. As the Bill stands, there is no cap on the amount the Crown Estate may borrow, subject only to Treasury approval and being within the fiscal rules. To quote the Minister at Second Reading, “any borrowing by the Crown Estate will be at commercial rates, for subsidy control reasons, and be subject to Treasury consent. Values will be based on the total gross audited asset value of the enterprise, as reported in the annual report and accounts”.—[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1024.] I struggle to think of any other examples of this kind of arrangement, where Parliament gives permanent rights for borrowing subject only to Treasury approval. If the Bill passes as it stands, there will be no further parliamentary oversight or review of these powers. There are, in effect, no limits on the amount that can be borrowed in either cash terms or as a percentage of holdings. While employing different methods, my amendments and the others in this group all have a similar purpose: balancing the competing objectives with applying some overall financial oversight, while not being so restrictive as to be burdensome to the work of the Crown Estate and our common objective of reaching net zero. Since borrowing powers lie at the heart of the Bill, it would be remiss of us not to examine fully their purpose, extent, impact and further oversight. We welcome the key partnership with Great British Energy, which was announced at the same time that GB Energy was launched. We welcome the plan to gain greater investment and make better use of the Crown Estate’s lands to generate new sustainable energy projects. We support the aims of updating the Crown Estate Act 1961 so that the Crown Estate can make best use of its cash reserves, subject to Treasury approval. Much has changed since the original Act was passed, and it makes sense to update the borrowing provisions in it. The Crown Estate is a commercial business set up by the 1961 Act. It is independent of government and managed by commissioners who operate to secure profits that are returned to the Treasury for the benefit of the nation. To grow and to help it play a more useful role in our path to achieving net zero, the Crown Estate should have broader powers to borrow and to invest, so that it is best able to prosper, to compete in a commercial marketplace and to make best use of the assets under its control. The restrictions under the 1961 Act have created an unhelpful situation, where the Crown Estate, in the past, has been forced to sell our national assets to generate capital for investment. This is not a situation we wish to see continue.

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Of course, other businesses operating in this marketplace are forced to abide by a business model that means, in effect, that the Crown Estate has one hand tied behind its back. These restrictions limit the ability of the Crown Estate to operate as a partner in the development of our sustainable energy projects. The Crown Estate has itself asked for these new powers so that it can borrow, as other companies do, in order to grow and develop at pace.

At Second Reading, the Minister said:

“The exact profile of lending would depend on a number of factors, including the timing and financing requirements of specific investments, as well as the extent to which the Crown Estate can generate funding by the disposal of non-strategic assets. The current expectations are that borrowing will not be needed until 2029 and is expected initially to be in the low hundreds of millions”. —[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1018.]

My understanding is that these borrowing powers are in place from the point the Bill is passed; but the plan is that the Crown Estate will first run down its cash reserves, and only after then will it be necessary for the new borrowing powers to come into effect. In any case, 2029 is a long way off, and much can change between now and then. It was on the basis of that ministerial statement that I have set the cap in my amendment at £150 million, but I am happy to look at it differently after today’s debate if your Lordships feel that this would be helpful.

On these Benches, we greatly appreciated the commitment from the Minister at Second Reading to publish the business case, subject to the removal of sensitive information. At Second Reading, the Minister also very generously agreed to publish a version of the framework agreement. The framework agreement sets out the broad principles, such as the limits on overall loan to value ratios and the requirement for borrowing to be at market rates. Is the Minister still of the opinion that it would be possible to publish the business case, subject to the removal of commercially sensitive information, and a short version of the intended framework agreement prior to Report? I understand that the proposed content of the framework agreement was promised to be delivered prior to today’s Committee.

As I am sure other noble Lords are, I am keen to find common ground and a way forward on the issues in this group of amendments. My humble opinion is that the publication of these documents, and some words of reassurance from the Dispatch Box, would be helpful in this regard. I look forward to the debate on these measures and to the Minister’s response to my amendment and the others in this group. I beg to move.

My Lords, this is an interesting and important amendment that goes to the heart of Treasury control. Historically, it is fair to say that, when it came to nationalised industries, the Treasury set external finance limits that were not subject to constraints ex ante from Parliament. The proposal to borrow is definitely the right one. I recall having to jump through extraordinary hoops to enable the Crown Estate to invest in creating special purpose vehicles, usually with foreign sovereign wealth funds, to support the financing of investment. So moving to give the Crown Estate borrowing powers is the right approach. The question then is: to what extent do those need to be constrained by Parliament? There are precedents. For example, Scotland is constrained in the quantity of its borrowing. However, the Crown Estate has more in common with nationalised industries. I hope that the Minister will confirm that in each Budget and spending review, the Treasury will publish three-year to five-year plans for the external financing limit of the Crown Estate. This will allow Parliament to scrutinise those proposals along with the rest of the Budget but should not require overarching constraint in legislation, which would effectively constrain the Treasury’s decisions on who should borrow across government and how best to allocate borrowing resources.

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 8. There should be a limit on the level of borrowings that the Crown Estate can have. It would be irresponsible to issue a blank cheque that risks, even encourages, abuse by the political system. At Second Reading, I suggested that a limit could be set as a percentage of capital reserves, and I proposed 10% as an appropriate amount. When added to the Crown Estate’s cash position, 10% would retain a generous amount of flexibility while guarding against the risk of abuse and overborrowing. Amendment 8 does just this. I thank the Minister for seeing me to discuss my amendment, but regret that he did not agree with the principle that a limit on borrowing is necessary. He believes that the approval needed by His Majesty’s Treasury would act as a sufficient safeguard. There are two important reasons why I believe that this is not the case. First, relying on the good intentions of His Majesty’s Treasury to provide the necessary safeguards is simply insufficient. The First Lord of the Treasury is the Prime Minister. There is also the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who could, if the political ambition was sufficient, persuade His Majesty’s Treasury that a loan to the Crown Estate was desirable. The Minister said at Second Reading that he did not envisage the Crown Estate borrowing in the near future. However, there may be a less responsible Government in the future who may make use of this possible sleight of hand to encourage profligate or political spending. Secondly, if a current or future Government wished to disguise spending, it is possible for the Crown Estate commissioners to carry out the desired spending for the Government with funds provided by the Treasury. Loans to the Crown Estate would be classed as an asset, meaning that the spending would be seen not as an expense but as a capital asset. Without restrictions on borrowing, there is an incentive for future less responsible Governments to increase lending to very high levels. A limit on the Crown Estate’s borrowing would go some way towards safeguarding against this. However, I also welcome Amendment 10, in the name of my noble friend Lady Vere of Norbiton, which provides another safeguard against this happening by ensuring that loans made to the Crown Estate are included in the Government’s assessment of the national debt. I remain concerned about the lack of safeguarding against excessive borrowing, which poses a significant and unnecessary risk that the Crown Estate does not need to continue operating successfully. As we have heard, I am not the only member of this House who has concerns about permitting the Crown Estate limitless borrowings from His Majesty’s Treasury. Amendments 2 and 5, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and Amendments 3, 4, 6 and 7, tabled by my noble friend Baroness Vere of Norbiton, all propose alternative limits to borrowing which would be quite acceptable. Should the Minister find these amendments too restrictive, Amendment 8 provides him with a generous alternative. Finally, as the Minister has been made aware, I would like to degroup Amendment 9; as such, I will save my comments on it for the next group. I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause the House, but having reflected on the matter, I feel it important to deal with that amendment separately.

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend and agree with many of his comments, and to give more than a nod to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Baroness Vere of Norbiton. I rise to speak to Amendment 20 in my name. The Crown Estate has a unique position in our society, our economy, across many of our communities and right around our shoreline. This position will only be increased and enhanced through many of the measures set out in this Bill, not least the yet to be discovered tie-up with GB Energy. To this end, my Amendment 20 seeks to put in statute the principle of additionality for all spending decisions of the Crown Estate. It seems sound that, given the potential not least of offshore wind, the activities of the Crown Estate cannot at any point be seen to be crowding out other private funds. An additionality principle which seeks to apply measures on crowding out and ensure crowding in, and a report to that effect, would be not just a principle of additionality but a good addition to this Bill. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

My Lords, I want to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. That would be an attractive proposition if we were dealing with a “have regard”, but asking the Crown Estate to go through an extensive exercise to find out what every competitor wants to invest in would be far too challenging. However, as an underlying principle, through a “have regard”, that might be a workable way to address that issue. I want to come back to the body of the amendments. I was fairly hopeful that we would not have to come forward with these amendments because we would have seen the language, or at least the essence of the language, that was going to be in the new framework agreement. The Minister fully accepts that the existing framework agreement completely misses the point and is unfit for purpose when it comes to adding new borrowing powers. For those who have not made the effort to look the current framework, it says that the Crown Estate may not borrow money “on security or otherwise”. There are some small exceptions for day-to-day running and working capital-type things, but that is about it. Then, the framework says that the Crown Estate’s exposure to indirect borrowing through joint ventures—this is the way the Crown Estate, in effect, has borrowed: by creating joint ventures that then go out into the market—will be no more than 40% in one vehicle, and in aggregate should not exceed 10% of the Crown Estate’s net asset value. Something along those lines strikes me as extremely appropriate and would, I think, seem appropriate to most of this House. I raised ahead of Second Reading, and on Second Reading with the Minister, that we have never seen a business case that argues why additional borrowing or additional funds are necessary. This is an entity that is sitting on some £2 billion in cash—why is this necessary? I do not think we are opposed to this, but if we are going to approve it, it makes sense to see the thought process behind it. The Minister was quite hopeful: he said that he was happy now to commit to publishing a version of the business plan, approved by the last Government, which removes any commercially sensitive information. That was a really satisfactory step, but we have not seen it. I suppose I am slightly surprised that it is been so difficult to just black out the commercially sensitive bits, and I wonder when we are going to see it.

17:00:00

There is also the issue of the revised framework agreement; this is a cart-and-horse situation. Ideally, we would see a draft framework and then get the legislation, so that we would understand what we are approving. The Minister said,

“and I commit to write to her”—

that is, to me—

“before Committee stage, setting out the expected contents of the framework. I further commit that the framework will be published in draft by November”.—[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1024.]

I could have missed it, but I have checked my inbox and cannot find that letter setting out the expected contents of the framework. I do not want to make this a big issue with the Minister, but it is hard to ask this Committee, when it has not seen the framework, simply to accept the legislation in its current form.

For that reason, we have a raft of amendments attempting to do what the framework should be doing, which is to establish the boundaries within which the Crown Estate can borrow. It matters because, if it all goes wrong, Crown Estate projects would have to be curtailed or it would have to borrow from the national fund. It could all end up on the taxpayer, one way or the other, so we need to understand that an appropriate framework is in place, which sits behind the legislation that we are being asked to approve.

I am slightly stunned and hoping that the Minister will say more. It is important that this comes not after we have approved the final legislation but in the course of the legislation. In a sense, I am referring to the Pepper v Hart principles that mean that we capture some legislative standing around the comments and commitments that the Minister makes.

I hope that we can make some progress on this. With the finances that we have, there is almost no way that anybody in this House could come up with the right set of ratios or constraints. We do not have a business plan or enough detailed forecasts. We really need the Treasury to put that in front of us.

My Lords, this group of amendments on the investment and borrowing powers in the Bill for the most part seeks to put in place limits on borrowing by the Crown Estate. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, who introduced the group, and I agree with him that there should be a limit on the borrowing powers that the Government intend to extend to the Crown Estate commissioners. I also associate myself with the comments made by both the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about the absence of the business case and the draft framework agreement. This is not the first Treasury Bill where accompanying documents have not appeared, but this is a new Government. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising for his Amendment 8—I understand that the Committee will come back to his Amendment 9 separately—which seeks to probe the Government’s intention on borrowing. My noble friend made his points clearly: it is not just about this current Government, or the subsequent Government, but any future Government under whom there may need to be checks and balances in place to prevent the overleveraging of a very important group of national assets run by an independent company or organisation. Extending the borrowing powers was planned by the previous Conservative Government, and we absolutely support the principle of the Bill. As I said on the previous group, the Crown Estate will be a very different organisation in 10 years and so has to do a lot of things very quickly. It is going to need money and there is an opportunity here. However, I am struggling to figure out how its relationships with GB Energy, on which I still lack clarity, and—one step removed—the national wealth fund, which I understand does not have as much money as was originally planned, will all fit together. Therefore, to protect the integrity of the Crown Estate it is important that a borrowing limit is put in place. Previously, the Crown Estate commissioners were constrained by the 1961 Act, but we support other noble Lords who have spoken today on considering what the mechanism might be. Different noble Lords have proposed different mechanisms. I appreciate that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, picked a number, and I accept that that might be an outcome, but of course it is not really inflation-proofed; it would be in the Bill and therefore it might not be helpful in due course. I went away and thought about having 2% of total assets as the limit. If one looks at the portfolio as it stands for 2022-23—£15.5 billion—one sees that a 2% cap would represent a cash limit of around £310 million. That would be a more generous cap than that proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, but it is broadly equivalent to the “hundreds of millions”—I think that was the phrase—envisaged by the Minister. We are just trying to be helpful here, by putting a statutory footing underneath the Minister’s intention in any event. Another thought I had was not only doing this as a percentage of total assets but giving Parliament some sort of say over a five-year horizon. I think this was the point that the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, was making, but in a separate way. I was not actually aware that borrowing forecasts appear in documents relating to the Crown Estate—maybe they do, and in any event it would be worthwhile to have a look at them. There is a significant loss of parliamentary oversight in this Bill. There is very little parliamentary oversight at all of the Crown Estate anyway, despite it holding some of our national assets, but the Bill takes even more of that parliamentary oversight away, which I will come to in a subsequent group. I believe that there is an opportunity to add some oversight, and therefore I came up with the idea that Parliament should be required to pass regulations that set out, by year, a five-year borrowing cap. Parliament could do that every year quite simply. That would obviously give flexibility, and it would enable debates to happen about the Crown Estate and whether it was heading in the right direction. The Treasury could be challenged about its involvement—apparently there is a transparent relationship between the Treasury and the Crown Estate, although I have found no notes relating to that which would indicate such transparency. That was my other idea. There are many ways that the House might decide on Report to put a limit on borrowings. I am happy to hear the views of the Minister; I very much hope that he will appreciate that many noble Lords are trying to help. Briefly, my Amendment 10 picks up the point made by my noble friend Lord Howard about the situation where the Treasury is going to be lending to the Crown Estate, and that will be down as an asset, and then that money could circulate back and go into day-to-day government spending. To me, that seems slightly odd. It would be good to get some sort of commitment to ensure that that sort of mechanism is somehow broken. I am grateful to all noble Lords, especially my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond. I might come to his element about additionality when we come on to the reporting of the investment strategy of the Crown Estate in a later group.

My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions from all noble Lords on this group of amendments. I recognise that the issue of controls on borrowing is an important consideration, and I hope to offer some reassurance. I agree with very many of the points raised during this debate, in particular that controls on borrowing by the Crown Estate must be in place. I assure noble Lords that such controls will be set out in the memorandum of understanding that will be in place between the Crown Estate and the Treasury, and will be set at a loan to value ratio not to exceed 25%.

Is the Minister saying that it will be an MoU rather than a framework agreement, or are they the same thing by another name?

They are the same thing by another name. By way of background, as the noble Baroness, Lady Vere of Norbiton, said, the Bill we are considering was conceived under the previous Government, and it was continued by this Government as we share the same objective to increase the Crown Estate’s ability to compete and to invest. The default starting position I inherited was that the memorandum of understanding between the Crown Estate and the Treasury could contain commercially sensitive information and would therefore not be published. I listened carefully to views expressed by many noble Lords at Second Reading that it should in fact be published. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, spoke particularly persuasively on this issue, and I gave her the commitment at Second Reading that it would be published in draft before November. I can confirm to noble Lords that it will, as a result, definitely be published before Report. In hindsight, though, I recognise that I could have reversed the position I inherited sooner and that this would have been more helpful to noble Lords considering this group of amendments. I am also grateful for the conversation I had last week with the noble Lord, Lord Howard, which I found informative and persuasive. I thank him for his time. I believe the question is not whether such controls on borrowing should exist but what those controls are and whether they should be set out in statute or in the memorandum of understanding. I will briefly recap the purpose of this legislation. The Crown Estate is a commercial business, independent from government, that operates for profit and competes in the marketplace for investment opportunities, but to compete effectively, and to invest in order to maximise its returns to the Exchequer, it needs the ability to borrow, as its competitors currently can. That is the purpose of this legislation, and we should consider the controls we wish to place on its ability to borrow in the context of not undermining that objective. It is important to note that any borrowing by the Crown Estate will be for investment in activities that will drive increases in revenues, therefore increasing the returns it provides to the Government. The Government’s strong intention is for the Crown Estate to borrow at levels that are proportionate to the nature of the business. I must emphasise that the powers proposed by the Bill are both targeted and measured. The Crown Estate will not be permitted to borrow without the consent of the Treasury. This is a strong safeguard and ensures that borrowing by the Crown Estate will not be uncontrolled. Furthermore, as I set out at the beginning of my comments, the memorandum of understanding will set a loan-to-value ratio not to exceed 25%. It will also set out other operating parameters in regard to the Crown Estate’s borrowing ability. I turn to Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 8 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere of Norbiton, the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell. These amendments each seek to cap the level of borrowing out of the National Loans Fund by the Crown Estate in specific ways. Amendment 3 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, would restrict borrowing out of the National Loans Fund to no more than 2% of the value of total assets of the Crown Estate. Measuring 2% against Crown Estate assets would currently equate to £354 million. Amendment 2 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, would limit Crown Estate borrowing out of the National Loans Fund to no more than £150 million, while similarly Amendment 8 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howard, would restrict borrowing out of the National Loans Fund to no more than 10% of capital and reserves, which on current figures equates to approximately £1.5 billion. So there is a wide range of views on the specific size of the limit. Based on current asset values, the proposed 25% loan-to-value parameter would equate to approximately £3 billion. The principal issue here is whether a specific cap should be set out in the Bill. The Government’s considered view is that such a limit should not exist in statute. The purpose of the Bill is to afford the Crown Estate greater flexibility so that it can continue to deliver on its success, support wider national policy objectives and generate maximum returns for the Exchequer. As such, the measures proposed in the Bill are intended to endure without further amendment for many decades to come. For this reason, the Government’s view is that controls on borrowing are best set outside primary legislation, as is the case for some other public bodies with borrowing powers. The controls on borrowing for the Crown Estate will instead be set out in the underpinning memorandum of understanding agreed with the Treasury, which I have referred to previously. I remind noble Lords that the fundamental duties of the Crown Estate commissioners, and their general duty, will remain to maintain and enhance the value of the estate and the return obtained from it, with due regard to the requirements of good management. Excessive borrowing would not be consistent with this duty. We should also be mindful of what an appropriate maximum level of debt for an organisation such as the Crown Estate may be. It has an asset base in excess of £15 billion, overwhelmingly in the form of land and property. Included in the Crown Estate’s original business case, which I have also committed to publish before Report, is information on the loan-to-value ratio of the Crown Estate’s peers in the UK real estate sector. At the most conservative end of this scale is the Duchy of Cornwall, with a loan-to-value ratio of 14%. By contrast, a £150 million limit on Crown Estate borrowing would equate to a loan-to-value ratio of less than 1%.

17:15:00

That is not to say that the powers in the Bill will see an immediate use of the Crown Estate’s borrowing powers. As I said at Second Reading, the current expectations are that borrowing will initially be in the low hundreds of millions, beginning later in this decade. For the same reasons, the Government also believe that limits on financial assistance should not be set in the Bill, as Amendments 5, 6 and 7 would require.

Turning to the treatment of lending to the Crown Estate, I can confirm that any loans to the Crown Estate will automatically be captured in the measure of UK general government gross debt. It is therefore not necessary to include this in the Bill as Amendment 10 proposes.

I turn next to conditions on the commissioners’ investment powers. Amendment 20 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, seeks to insert into the Bill a new clause that would require the commissioners to ensure that the principle of additionality is met before making any investment decision. In practice, this would restrict investment by the Crown Estate to that which is not already present in the market. This would represent a fundamental change, given that the Crown Estate competes in commercial markets for profit. As such, applying the principle of additionality to the Crown Estate would significantly restrict its ability to make investment decisions consistent with its core functions and duties.

The Crown Estate’s mandate is to operate as a commercial business, to maintain and enhance an estate in land and to grow the returns obtained from it, which are then returned to the Government. To do this, it must retain the ability to compete in the market unrestricted by the principle of additionality. The restrictions that would be imposed by this amendment are at odds with the policy intent of the Bill—specifically, to ensure that the Crown Estate can compete effectively in a modern commercial environment and to provide maximum returns to the Government.

It should also be noted that the Crown Estate does not exist to address market failures. Rather, it is tasked with managing Crown property on a commercial basis to generate a return for the Exchequer. As such, it is an entirely different organisation from those where the additionality principle is applied.

It is also possible that this amendment could have significant consequences for the nature of the Crown Estate’s portfolio. For instance, it is possible that parts of its historic London portfolio, such as Regent Street, would fall foul of this principle.

I hope that these explanations have been helpful and that I have provided some clarity on the points raised. I hope that, as a result, the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, the noble Lords, Lord Howard and Lord Holmes, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, feel able not to press their amendments.

My Lords, I thank everybody who has spoken on this group of amendments. It has been a useful and helpful discussion from us all. There was a feeling from all parties across the Committee that there was a need for some movement on these issues, and I thank the Minister for listening to the will of the Committee and responding so positively. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson. It is an interesting idea to review the borrowing limits, which could be published. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, for his amendment proposing that borrowing should not exceed 10%, and the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, for her amendments. The Minister has really listened. The important thing we have here is a commitment from the Minister to publish the memorandum of understanding and the business case before Report. That information will be helpful to Members from all parties in making decisions about what they want to do, so I thank him greatly for that. He also said very clearly that his understanding is that the loan-to-value rate should not be more than 25%, which would be a sum equivalent to £3 billion of the total £15 billion of value within the Crown Estate. We have some things to go away and think about. I heard what the Minister said about the Government’s position. His view is that there should not be a value that exists in statute. That is something that we probably all need to go away and think about to move it forward, but I thank him for the concessions that he has made. Providing that information will help Members of this House to make their decisions, so I thank him very much.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

Amendments 3 to 8 not moved.

Amendment 9

Moved by

9: Clause 1, page 1, line 26, at end insert— “(c) borrowing by the Commissioners must not exceed an amount equal to 200% of capital and reserves of the Crown Estate.”

My Lords, I thank the Minister for accepting the principle that there should be a limit on lending; 25% is probably more than I would have liked to go for, but nevertheless I am grateful that the principle has been accepted. That would probably be better in statute than in a memorandum of understanding, but perhaps I could reflect on that. Really, the Minister has taken the wind out of the sails of my Amendment 9, so I beg leave to withdraw it.

As the noble Lord has spoken to the amendment, the Government may reply if they so wish.

No.

Amendment 9 withdrawn.

Amendments 10 and 11 not moved.

Clause 1 agreed.

Clause 2: Number of Crown Estate Commissioners and their salaries and expenses

Amendment 12

Moved by

12: Clause 2, page 2, line 11, at end insert— “5A The Chair of Commissioners and each Commissioner may not be appointed until the appointment has been scrutinised by the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons, or any successor committee.”Member's explanatory statement This amendment would require the appointment of the Chair of Commissioners of The Crown Estate to be subject to scrutiny by the Treasury Select Committee.

My Lords, my Amendments 12 and 36 focus broadly on the governance and management of the Crown Estate. Amendment 12 in my name seeks to introduce a process by which Parliament can scrutinise the appointment of new Crown Estate commissioners. If passed, the Bill will increase the number of commissioners from eight to 12. The Government have not given a clear reason for this change, arguing merely that the new number will bring the number of commissioners in line with best practice for modern corporate governance. Further information and thoughts on that from the Minister would be welcome. It would be interesting to hear what problems this change will solve, what particular skills he feels the Crown Estate is missing and why those additional four commissioners will deliver the change needed. As many noble Lords have remarked already in Committee today, the Crown Estate bears the most enormous responsibility as the custodian of many of the nation’s important assets. That responsibility is significant, yet the level of parliamentary oversight—over not only the activity of the commissioners but their stewardship of these billions of pounds’ worth of incredibly important assets—is weak and has been further weakened by the Bill. My Amendment 12 would give Parliament a role in scrutinising commissioner appointments to ensure that candidates were qualified for the role that they are anticipated to play. That would include the new commissioners who will be introduced after the Bill becomes law, as well as the chair of commissioners, for which I believe a recruitment process is currently under way. The chair of the commissioners will be an incredibly important role. Again, I believe it would be beneficial and reassuring to all parliamentarians if a committee—for example, the Treasury Select Committee—had the opportunity to question the candidate for that role before they took up the reins. The amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham identifies a specific issue when it comes to oversight. Commitments are made on behalf of the Crown Estate but there is no mechanism to ensure that those commitments are implemented. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will listen carefully to what my noble friend has to say, and will agree that the amendment in my noble friend’s name would improve the Bill. Amendment 36 also seeks to improve parliamentary scrutiny of the governance of the Crown Estate, by ensuring that the disposal of assets owned by the Crown Estate is reported to the Treasury and then to Parliament. The Minister will know that I was concerned about this, as I asked in a meeting what restrictions there were over sale of assets. I did not receive a satisfactory response at all. Again, I note that the Crown Estate owns some of our most important landmarks. These are valuable pieces of land, buildings or indeed seabed, but they are not just valuable; they are iconic. There is limited transparency to the decisions of the Crown Estate beyond the annual report. This measure is simply designed to ensure that Parliament has some visibility in the decision to dispose of assets. In this case, I picked an amount of £10 million, but it could be higher than that. This seeks to discourage the commissioners from taking inappropriate short-term decisions about the ownership of national landmarks, and indeed the natural environment, for short-term gain. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond for his amendments in this group about creating public good, and I will listen with great interest to the response from the Minister. The spirit of my noble friend’s Amendment 19 aligns closely with my Amendments 37A, 37B and 37C in a later group, and will touch on that there. Finally, I was interested to note the proposal from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, to grant the Crown Estate commissioners the power to grant leases in exchange for full or part ownership of any project. Again, that is something the Minister may wish to consider. I hope the Minister will look carefully at these constructive amendments, and specifically confirm to the Committee whether he agrees that Parliament should have a greater role—or indeed, in my view, any role at all at this stage—in scrutinising the work of the Crown Estate. I beg to move.

My Lords, Amendment 13 in my name is a follow-up to an issue I raised at Second Reading, where I spoke about a case where the Crown Estates were not honouring an undertaking that they gave to your Lordships’ House earlier this year: that they would adhere to the terms of the various Leasehold Reform Acts on the statute book. By appointing a commissioner, as my noble friend has just mentioned, with the specific responsibility of ensuring that such undertakings are honoured, we could reduce the risk of this happening. To recap, briefly, Parliament has given certain rights to leaseholders. Included in those rights is the right to buy out the freehold or to extend the lease on specified terms. The Crown is, as a general rule, exempt from legislation but it agrees to abide by its terms. The relevant undertaking to so abide was given by me in 1983, when I took what is now the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act through the other place. The undertaking was repeated by my noble friend Lady Anelay, then the Government Chief Whip, on 24 May this year as the then Leasehold Reform Bill got its Third Reading; it can be found in Hansard for that day and says that “The Crown … agrees to the enfranchisement or extension of … leases”—[Official Report, 24/5/24; col. 1368.] as set out in the various Acts. How does the Crown acquire new freeholds? When a freeholder disappears or goes bankrupt, the Crown Estate takes possession under a process known as escheat. At that point, leaseholders appear to lose the rights that Parliament has given them. In the case that I cited, leaseholders applied to buy the freehold but were told by agents acting for the Crown Estate that it was not obliged to dispose of the freehold under the relevant formula in the legislation, but offered to sell it at a far higher price—over four times as high. Solicitors acting for the Crown Estate conceded that, until this issue is resolved: “Where a block of flats is subject to escheat lessees will generally be unable to sell”, and that is indeed the case. We have a stalemate, as described at Second Reading, with longer-terms risks to the fabric of a building. I referred then to the framework document, which sets out the terms of agreement between the Treasury and the Crown Estate, in particular the sentence which says the Treasury shall “inform The Crown Estate of relevant government policy in a timely manner”. I suggested that the Minister told the Crown Estate that policy on enfranchisement has been clear for many years and that the Crown Estate should respect it.

17:30:00

In his reply to the debate, the Minister said:

“On the specific example he raised, I will raise this with the Crown Estate and come back to the noble Lord with a more detailed response”.—[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1018.]

I note in passing that at one point the Treasury had responsibility for this property through its bona vacantia division and was happy to sell and enfranchise, in line with the government formula. But the Crown Estate, which reports to the Treasury, has rules of its own and it is now in charge of that property. The Minister’s private office was in touch to confirm details of the property involved, but I heard no more until 4.30 pm on Friday. I was luckier than the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, who is still waiting for her answer. I will come to the Minister’s reply in a moment.

In the meantime, there has been an interesting development involving the ombudsman. The leaseholders referred the Crown Estate to the parliamentary ombudsman, alleging maladministration. I quote a key paragraph from a long decision letter:

“Furthermore, we cannot achieve the outcomes you are seeking as it is not within our power to compel the Crown Estate Office to negotiate with you to reach an agreed valuation and price. In order to seek any changes to how the Crown Estate … operates, this will need to be pursued via parliament which you have told us you are doing”.

That indeed is what I am now doing.

At this point, I am afraid that the Minister’s office appears to have let him down. The ombudsman’s letter was dated 20 September, making it clear that he could not intervene. The Minister’s reply—undated but, as I said, received on 11 October—says:

“The Ombudsman is therefore the appropriate mechanism to resolve issues of this kind”.

He is not; the ombudsman has made it clear that this is a matter for Parliament, so the buck that the Treasury passed to the ombudsman is now firmly back on the Minister’s desk. Crucial to the debate we are now having, the Minister’s letter said:

“However, TCE’s long-standing position is that it is required by the 1961 Act to achieve best consideration, having regard to all circumstances for any disposal of the land unless other provisions of that Act enable TCE”—

the Crown Estate—

“to act otherwise ... Consistent with this, most disposals of escheated land by TCE are for market value.”

It appears that the Crown Estate is sheltering behind that remit to deny leaseholders rights that they have been given by legislation.

I shall come in a moment to the argument as to whether that 1961 Act trumps later undertakings and legislation, but in the meantime we must dispose of another argument that the Minister deployed in his letter which self-detonates. He explains at the beginning of that letter that

“where freehold land is subject to escheat, the freehold interest will be extinguished”,

so there is an element of finality about that. But three paragraphs on, in the very same letter, what do we find referring to the specific case that I raised? He said that the Crown Estate

“has an established procedure for valuing the freehold to proceed with a sale”,

so the freehold that had been extinguished has now re-appeared. As Michael Palin asserted of the Norwegian Blue parrot in the “Monty Python” sketch, it was not dead. It had simply been resting or stunned. Crucially from the point of view of the Crown Estate, or at least its legal advisers, during the process of reincarnation that very same freehold had shed all the obligations it had had. It was now a new freehold, exempt from all legislation.

That argument is an ill-disguised attempt to throw one off the scent, and a piece of legal sophistry. What the leaseholders would acquire from the Crown Estate would be the freehold. The simple question for Parliament is: which statute should prevail? Is it the 1961 one, setting out the Crown Estate’s remit, or the subsequent Acts giving leaseholders rights? The answer is clear. After the Bill was passed earlier this year, Parliament gave certain rights to leaseholders and the Crown Estate agreed to honour them, and so it should. Many organisations have a duty to get best price for their assets—pension funds, local authorities and trustees —but they are all bound by the law. There is no reason why the Crown Estate, a commercial organisation, should be any different but there is in my view an even more powerful argument. Leaseholders who have been given rights by Parliament should not forfeit them when their freehold “disappears” and then reappears when the Crown Estate takes over, but mysteriously shorn of any conditions.

There are wider implications from all of this. Following the Building Safety Act post Grenfell, many freeholders could go bankrupt. Without going into the details of that Act, it produced what was called a waterfall of liabilities, with the sub-contractors and developers in the frame first, then in some cases the Government, then freeholders and then leaseholders. But remediation costs can be substantial, and many freeholders could go bankrupt; those blocks will then fall into escheat and, in addition to all the problems those leaseholders have of living in an unsafe block, they will then find themselves deprived of their rights.

At the end of the Minister’s reply, which, as I have made clear, I find very disappointing, there is a classic sentence crafted by the authors of “Yes, Minister”:

“The Government recognises there is potential for reform in this complex area”.

There is a solution, which I touched on at Second Reading: the framework document setting out the agreement between the Treasury and the Crown Estate. It says that the Treasury shall

“inform The Crown Estate of relevant government policy in a timely manner”.

We know what government policy is on this matter: it is set out in the various leasehold Acts. However, the Minister’s letter says that the Crown Estate

“does not believe the 1992 parliamentary undertaking applies to escheat”.

In effect, the Crown Estate is seeking to make a profit on the backs of leaseholders, who are being offered the freehold at a far higher price than they would have had to pay had their freeholder not disappeared. That is what the Crown Estate believes, but what does the Minister think? How does he begin to defend what I have just said? In his Written Answer to me, published today, the Minister confirms that we will have a new “draft Memorandum of Understanding” between his department and the Crown Estate. The solution is for that document to make it clear that the Acts of Parliament apply when the Crown disposes of freeholds under the process of escheat. I look forward to his reply and to the views of others who had the patience to listen to what I have just said. I make it clear that I will come back to this on Report if there is no satisfactory resolution before then.

My Lords, I rise to add a little extra interest to the statements made by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. We discussed this at Second Reading and my Amendment 42, which will come at the end of tomorrow night if we ever get that far, is about the same issue. I go back to the statement made by the Chief Whip of the previous Government, who basically said that the Crown will comply with the legislation if it chooses to; that is a summary. The way it chooses to do it will be published at some time, which is relevant to my amendment. The reason I am speaking now is because the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Young, beg the question: who is in charge? Is it the Government or the Crown Estate or, in my case, the Duchy of Cornwall? Each one blames the other and says that they are not in charge, but they actually probably are. They then refuse to have correspondence. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Young, got a letter. I have a good friend, Dr John Kirkhope, who advises on many issues around the Duchy of Cornwall, which is not much different to the Crown Estate. He tried to get a freedom of information decision on whether he could seek copies of correspondence between the Duchy and the Government—I think that includes the Crown Estate, the Duchy and the Government—on matters of policy. The answer was no. He went back and said, “Here you have an unelected body apparently advising government on matters of policy and that does not seem very right to me”. Paragraph 16 of the eight-page response from the Information Commissioner’s Office on whether any information should be disclosed says: “The Commissioner considers that the following factors will be key indicators of the formulation or the development of government policy”. There are then three bullet points. “the final decision will be made either by the Cabinet or the relevant minister; … the government intends to achieve a particular outcome or change in the real world; and … the consequences of the decision will be wide-ranging”. The Crown Estate therefore “advised that it considered direct correspondence as well as correspondence where the Crown Estate and the Duchy of Cornwall had been copied into” and decided that it is reasonable to withhold information. It looks as if the Crown Estate and the Duchy of Cornwall—we never mention the Duchy of Lancaster, but I think it is rather less difficult—seem to be a Government of their own. This is back to the feudal system, where Ministers, whom we elect and appoint, are unable to effect any legislation regarding the Crown Estate or the Duchy because they are not so important. It is back to the feudal system, and I shall come back to this on Amendment 42. I hope my noble friend will give the noble Lord, Lord Young, a pretty strong response, because this is something that will go on and on—whether it is escheat or something else. The people affected are getting pretty fed up with the Duchy and Crown Estate playing them and not coming back with a decent response.

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this group of amendments, not least to give full-throated support to my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who gave us an excellent lesson in escheat and how it is being applied by the Crown Estate. He took us on a whirlwind journey, from “Monty Python” to “Yes, Minister”, without needing at any point to go near Mornington Crescent. He also added greatly to the work of land law scholars across the country with the new common-law concept of the resting parrot freehold. I hope the Minister will respond in the only way possible to such a clear and erudite presentation from my noble friend—with a clear, unequivocal agreement to every last word.

17:45:00

I will speak to Amendments 18 and 19, which are in my name. In many ways, they are underpinned by a simple connection: it is all about the people involved. Amendment 18 looks at the issues of governance and those inside the Crown Estate—the stewards of the land and ocean. It suggests that, as the remit and in many ways the extent of the Crown Estate’s activities are being significantly and materially changed by this Bill, this would seem an opportune moment to review all the practices, policies, procedures, assets and investments of the Crown Estate. This would be to assess how they shape up around the principles of inclusion and inclusive by design, and ensure that they reflect what we want from 21st century Britain. Similarly, on the new appointees at the board table, we should look at those appointments and ensure that, when they come about, they really deliver on all the elements of inclusion in its broadest conception.

Amendment 19 is about the people who are impacted by the Crown Estate land, those who butt up against it, and who are on Crown Estate land and properties. They are the stakeholders. It seems to me that, again, this Bill offers the opportunity to completely reimagine that relationship between the Crown Estate and its stakeholders for the benefit of both. These are the people who understand the issues at the sharp end. As part of their daily experience, they come across the highs and lows of working the land and the ocean or being in the energy field. Crucially, they see where the difficulties and shortcomings are. I suggest to the Minister that, with modern technology, there is potential to engage with all these stakeholders in a completely reimagined fashion in real time if so required. This would really transform that relationship, drive greater benefits for both parties and completely change the sense of how those on the land and in the properties connect to the Crown Estate. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 31. I apologise in advance that I have no “Monty Python” sketch references, but I support the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Young, and the other amendments already spoken to. Amendment 31 seeks to give an explicit power to Crown Estate commissioners to lease parts of their holding in exchange for either part or full ownership of any project or development, as the commissioners see fit. For the sake of clarity, the full wording of the proposed new Section 3(1)(a) of the Crown Estate Act 1961 is: “The Commissioners may waive lease fees in exchange for full or part ownership of any project or development”. I say this only as the Member’s explanatory statement used the word “land”. My amendment is intended to—and does, as far as I am concerned—cover all the Crown Estate’s holdings. That is particularly important because, as we all know, most of its money comes from the leases of the seabed. This amendment is designed to help the Government and the partnership with GB Energy. It is designed to help the Crown Estate itself. I want to see a transition to net-zero power by 2030. I welcome that commitment from this Government. But I also want to see us grow and develop as an economy and as a country. I want the energy transition, which is arguably one of the greatest transitions in our use of energy since the Industrial Revolution, to be of benefit to ordinary people. I want the UK to be able to own at least parts of our new energy infrastructure—the energy infrastructure of the future. That is my thinking in my amendment. I want the UK to receive long-term benefits above and beyond just the green and environmental benefits that come with these things. The Crown Estate generates its income primarily from the lease of seabed plots for offshore wind and floating offshore wind developments. The Crown Estate reported record profits for 2023-24 of £1.1 billion, boosted by round 4 sales. Round 5 of the offshore wind auction was not as successful but we have just had a successful round 6, which I welcome, which generated some 4.9 gigawatts of capacity but at somewhat lower prices than in round 4. Labour has plans to generate 20 to 30 gigawatts of offshore wind capacity by 2030. For context, that is enough to power 20 million homes. We still have quite a long way to go with this offshore wind and floating offshore wind transition in particular. The hope is that £8.3 billion of investment by the Government will help to leverage some £60 billion of private investment. It is interesting that we are talking about this today, the day on which the Labour Government are holding their investment summit. I wish them well with that because the UK economy needs to grow and we need inward investment to do that. We welcome, obviously, the plans for GB Energy and this partnership and tie-up with the Crown Estate. But although I very much welcome Labour’s ambition to decarbonise our power generation by 2030, it is worth noting that GB Energy will not be an energy supplier or own any energy generation assets. To my mind, that is a missed opportunity and I think we could do better. To quote the Labour Energy Forum document title, Who Owns the Wind, Owns the Future. The Floating Offshore Wind Task Force has predicted that floating offshore wind could be the UK’s biggest industrial success by 2030, worth £47 billion to the UK economy and employing some 10,000 people. We should never lose sight of the fact that the UK is well placed and is estimated to be the third-best country in the world for the generation of wind energy. We are extremely lucky in that regard. Other significant parts of the Bill seek to make rights that were implicit in the 1961 Act explicit. From my reading of the original Act, I can see no reason why the Crown Estate could not waive lease fees in exchange for part-ownership of offshore or floating offshore energy wind projects—but, at the same time, I can find no implicit right in the original Act. Frankly, I think there should be an implicit right. As far as I can tell, the Crown Estate does not own or part-own any offshore wind installations now. It has a helpful page on its website that shows who owns all the offshore wind under its control. In many cases it is foreign Governments, hedge funds and other nations and their capital which own it. In 2022, for example, nearly half the UK’s offshore wind capacity was owned by state-owned or majority state-owned foreign companies. They are getting the long-term benefit of the investment in our third-best wind energy in the world and are using it to support their economies. I want our wind energy to generate and support our economy. While leasing plots brings in revenues, part-ownership of the infrastructure itself could bring in much-needed longer-term and consistent revenue streams to the Crown Estate. I believe there is greater long-term financial gain from part-ownership of energy infrastructure than from simply leasing the seabed. This would be good for the Crown Estate. As we have heard today, the Crown Estate is in a period of transition and allowing it the ability to explore this, if it wants to, would be useful at the start of the partnership. I also believe that allowing this to happen could be useful for the generation of small-scale community energy projects. This is something that I believe in strongly and would like to see the Government do a lot more of, and this amendment would be useful in helping that to happen. It could be the basis of a new model for the way the Crown Estate works, generating much smaller, local community benefit projects. This would be good for energy transition, good for the Crown Estate, good for the UK economy and good for jobs and growth. I welcome your Lordships’ responses and look forward to hearing from the Minister. I hope that this amendment finds approval.

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 22 in my name, which is included in this group of amendments. I also add my support to Amendment 18 from the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on inclusion in governance and Amendment 24—my noble friend Lord Wigley will follow with further commentary—on the transparency of financial reporting. One of the aims of bringing forward the Crown Estate Bill was to increase the number of commissioners on the board. Increasing the size of the board is a good opportunity to reflect on its composition, and I share the curiosity of the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, in relation to what the Government hope the additional commissioners will add, specifically, to the committee. At present there is no representation from our national Parliaments on the board, which makes investment and borrowing decisions across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Having representation from our national Parliaments on the board will improve the Crown Estate’s alignment with the public policy aims of our national Parliament, in particular on crossovers with policy on devolved areas such as energy and the environment. My amendment would give each of our national Parliaments where the Crown Estate has activities the opportunity to nominate a representative to the board. This amendment provides a meaningful mechanism for our democratically elected Parliaments to have a say on decisions made by the Crown Estate. I welcome support for this amendment from all corners of the Chamber and look forward to hearing the Government’s position too.

My Lords, I briefly intervene on this group of amendments, not least to support my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham in the point he made. I think it raised—as did Amendment 31 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell—the question of the interpretation and interaction of the powers in the 1961 Act and how they are being used. I want particularly to raise one issue with the Minister. I should also say that in the register of interests noble Lords will see that I chair the Cambridgeshire Development Forum, and the Crown Estate is a member of that, although I do not think any of its activities or that interest impinge on this Bill in any way. My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham referred to the way in which the Crown Estate interprets its statutory duty in Section 3(1) of the 1961 Act, which says that it must secure “the best consideration in money or money’s worth” in “all the circumstances of the case”. That is indeed what the statute says, but I have had the benefit of looking at the Crown Estate Act and talking with officials. I am grateful for their time, not least because it seems to me that there is an inherent restriction on the function of the commissioners which, as the Minister earlier made clear, is in Section 1(3) and sets out that they should “maintain and enhance” the value and return obtained from the estate with “regard to the requirements of good management”. As far as I understand it, the view of the Government and the Crown Estate is that, over 60 years or thereabouts, the requirements to obtain best consideration in money or money’s worth have effectively been trumped where necessary by the function of the commissioners, particularly as regards securing the requirements of good management. My first question to the Minister is: in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, was saying, does he agree that the requirements of good management in that instance mean that the Crown Estate would live by the practice of other public authorities, or those with public responsibilities, in relation to the interests of the leaseholders?

18:00:00

I have a second question for the Minister. Is it wise, as we are reviewing the Crown Estate Act 1961, to make it fit for purpose, as the essential Act for the Crown Estate, to keep that best consideration requirement? What does it add to the function in Section 1—that of securing, maintaining or enhancing the value of the estate, subject to the requirements of good management? Does it actually add any restraint? In that instance, of course, many noble Lords on other amendments are talking about how the Crown Estate could go about trying to secure other, wider national interest objectives, not least in relation to environmental considerations —and then we come on to talk about the seabed and other issues.

There is a risk associated with Clause (3)(1) and best consideration: that it might prevent the Crown Estate from fulfilling what it might regard as its core objective, which is to secure the maintenance and enhancement of the value of the estate but with the requirements of good management. In this context, good management embraces many of the issues that no doubt we will discuss in other amendments. We will probably not amend the Bill because putting them into the statute will be onerous, but we want to be assured that the Crown Estate, by virtue of Section 1 of the 1961 Act, has all the powers—and they are not just implied, because the Minister makes it clear that it actually has the powers—to do these things, meet these obligations and secure these objectives, and that Clause (3)(1) will not prevent it from doing so.

Before I pursue the subject of the amendment, I am glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on that subject. I suggest that, if the Crown Estate has the powers, it also has the responsibilities that go with it. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, has highlighted some important responsibilities, and I suspect that it will need a lot more attention in coming months and years. I shall speak primarily once again on issues relating to the devolved dimension. It is to better understand the financial dealings of the Crown Estate in Wales that Amendment 24 in my name and that of the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys, is on the Marshalled List. It asks for the disaggregation of the annual reporting of capital and revenue items to provide transparency in regard to the Crown Estate finances relating to Wales, England and Northern Ireland respectively. We have gone through some of the general arguments in this sphere, so I am not going to repeat them, but I stress that this is a modest proposal that surely cannot be rejected by any Government who have some sympathy with the position of the devolved Government.

I shall make a short contribution in agreement with Amendment 22 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, and Amendment 24 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. When I was preparing for this debate, I looked at some figures, but they are very difficult to find. On the first group in Committee, I referred to the fact that we know that the Crown Estate has land worth more than £600 million in Wales, that it owns 65% of the coast and that it has 300,000 acres of land in Wales, but we do not know exactly how much money that raises in Wales. We know that, across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, profits have more than doubled in the past year, growing from £443 million in 2022-23 to £1.1 billion in 2023-24, but there is very little clarity about the contribution of each individual nation to the total. In the interests of transparency, I certainly support Amendment 24. On Amendment 22, I cannot understand why none of the Parliaments of the UK sends a representative to sit on the board of the commission. I support those two amendments.

My Lords, I very much endorse the comments of my noble friend Lady Humphreys. I too believe that this is another opportunity to make sure that there is a far stronger voice for Wales, so let us seize it and use that as a template for how the Crown Estate goes forward. I wanted to focus more on a couple of other issues. In a sense, I see a linkage between the comments made by my noble friend Lord Russell suggesting that, by forgoing receiving lease income and instead taking an ownership tranche in a whole series of new energy projects, the long-term income to the Crown Estate and to England and Wales would be significantly larger than the much shallower and shorter-term benefit of charging lease rent. That relates to the same kind of issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. Please could the Minister sort that problem out? This really is an unfair situation, and it will just take a Minister to absolutely slap his hand on the table and get it done. In both cases there is a tendency, which I noticed at Second Reading, for Members of this House to think of the Crown Estate as some sort of cuddly organisation. It may be very generous, and if you read its annual report you can see that it does wonderful things for local communities and talks incredibly sympathetically about disadvantaged people, but when it operates as a commercial entity, my goodness, it is one of the most aggressive commercial entities that anyone could run into—and when you say that within the property sector, you are really saying something. It is infected by the same position adopted by many other property companies, which is to go for very short-term profit and to forget about the long term. Everything that we hear from the Government is about patient capital—and, if you are going to look for the long term, surely you follow the pattern proposed by my noble friend Lord Russell, which says that, over the long term, you will do much better if you take some serious equity positions and perhaps make an in-kind contribution to a project, rather than charging rent over a relatively short-term period. If it acts in the same way as a commercial entity, surely in its commercial activities the Crown Estate should be treated as a commercial entity and therefore have to live up to the law that applies to other commercial entities operating in that same sector, and not to have an out because of its peculiar status, sitting somewhere between public and private. If that were done, the noble Lord, Lord Young, would not be asking why on earth it was not living up to the terms of the law for other commercial entities in dealing with leaseholders and freehold. It has to be recognised for what it is, and there are changes, consequently, that the Government may wish to make—first to create long-term thinking but also to make sure that, when it operates on a commercial basis, it is subject to the same regulations and requirements as other similar commercial properties. I want to address very briefly the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere. It is wonderful the change that comes when a body moves into opposition —the road to Damascus. The number of times I have asked a Conservative Government: when we have appointments, could we please have pre-appointment scrutiny by a committee of this House? In fact, I may even have requested them of the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, concerning various appointments at the Treasury—I cannot quite remember, there have been so many over the years. I am so glad of this Damascene conversion. We now have a Conservative party that is also supporting pre-appointment scrutiny. I do believe that pre-appointment scrutiny was often the Labour Party position. The noble Lord, Lord Livermore, is shaking his head but I think I may have a longer memory. I have certainly heard it from other Members, both on the Treasury Select Committee when I was in the other House, and on the Economic Affairs Committee. Pre-appointment scrutiny does make sense as a general underlying principle, and it would seem to make sense for the four new commissioners that are to be added to the existing eight. Like others, I am really curious to know: going from eight to 12, they say, is good practice, but why? What will they do? Where will they come from? I can perfectly well see that this is a great opportunity for regional representation, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, touched on a very important point: we now look at most boards and want to see clearly that they understand that the ethics and attitudes of today require inclusivity; that it is not just some token item somewhere in an ethics statement by the company, but that someone is actually taking responsibility, based on knowledge, at a very senior level within the decision-making structure, and implementing that role. Here is an opportunity to seize that, and I hope very much that the Government will do so.

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Vere and Lady Smith, the noble Lords, Lord Young, Lord Holmes and Lord Wigley, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for raising these very important issues concerning the governance and management of the Crown Estate. I should emphasise again that the intention of the Bill is to afford the Crown Estate greater flexibility to ensure that it can successfully compete in commercial markets to deliver maximum benefits for the nation. The noble Baronesses, Lady Vere, Lady Smith and Lady Kramer, asked about the number of commissioners. This change reflects the growing diversity of the Crown Estate’s business and will ensure that the Crown Estate can meet best practice standards for modern corporate governance. This will help to broaden the diversity of the board and provide more breadth of expertise and capacity to enable the commissioners to operate more effectively in the constantly evolving business environment. The Bill provides for a maximum number of 12 commissioners, up from eight at present. However, within this limit, the exact number of commissioners serving at any one time will be in the light of advice from the Crown Estate’s board on where it considers additional board-level expertise would be beneficial to the business. I will start by addressing the issue of the appointment of commissioners to the Crown Estate’s board, reflecting on Amendments 12 and 22, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Vere and Lady Smith. Amendment 12, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, would require scrutiny by the Treasury Select Committee or any successor committee of all future proposed commissioner appointments, including the chair, before any appointment can be made. Let me first emphasise that all Crown Estate commissioner appointments are governed by the Governance Code on Public Appointments. The code is clear that commissioners must be selected based on expertise and experience. As I have previously set out, the Crown Estate operates independently of the King and of government. Affording Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise potential appointments before they are made would significantly alter the appointments process, in a way that would change the relationship between the Crown Estate, government and Parliament. The Cabinet Office’s existing guidance on pre-appointment scrutiny is clear that it should apply only where posts play a key role in the regulation of actions by the Government, protecting and safeguarding the public’s rights and interests in relation to decisions and actions of the Government, or roles where organisations have a direct major impact on public life. It is the Government’s view, as it was of the previous Government, that the Crown Estate’s commissioner posts do not fit these criteria and that it would therefore be inappropriate to require pre-appointment scrutiny. It should also be noted that pre-appointment scrutiny of roles elsewhere in public life is limited largely to the role of chairs. Therefore, even if the Cabinet Office’s criteria were satisfied, it would be disproportionate and unusual for all commissioner appointments to be subject to such scrutiny. In addition, requiring pre-appointment scrutiny for non-executive commissioner posts, which are not high profile or public facing, may deter some candidates from applying. As I have set out, this would be inconsistent with existing pre-scrutiny arrangements, which are generally restricted to chair positions. Consequently, this might put at risk securing candidates of the necessary quality and calibre to the board and present a more fundamental risk to the overall management of the Crown Estate.

18:15:00

Amendment 22, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, would see the nomination of commissioners from the House of Commons, the Welsh Senedd and the Northern Ireland Assembly via procedures to be determined by the Speaker of each legislature. The amendment would also require His Majesty to ensure equal representation of any individuals nominated in this manner by legislatures. The Government fully recognise the importance of ensuring that appropriate candidates are appointed to these significant public posts, and the need to ensure diverse representation on the board. However, allowing national Parliaments to nominate commissioners would risk politicising the Crown Estate. It is absolutely right that the Crown Estate remains free from direct political influence, as intended under the 1961 Act. Politicising appointments in this way would impede the ability of the organisation to operate independently.

Amendment 13, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, would require one commissioner to have responsibility for ensuring that the Crown Estate abides by public undertakings given on its behalf. I know that this is an important issue for the noble Lord, and I thank him for raising it. Under the Crown Estate Act 1961 and specifically the duty to have due regard to the requirements of good management, the commissioners are already required to ensure that they comply with their public undertakings. Placing such responsibility on one individual would, in the Government’s view, undermine the Crown Estate’s long-held principle that all commissioners have equal responsibility for the actions, purpose, risk appetite, strategy and values of the Crown Estate. In respect of the interaction between escheat and public undertakings given by the Crown, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, the 20 September letter from the ombudsman that he refers to has not been seen by the Treasury or the Crown Estate. I hope he will allow me to look into the matters he raises further and come back to him. I am of course very happy to meet with him if he would find that helpful.

This may not satisfy my noble friend Lord Berkeley, but a number of existing governance arrangements are in place to ensure that the Crown Estate is accountable for the exercise of its statutory functions. This includes the requirement for the Crown Estate to lay a report and its accounts before Parliament, audited by the National Audit Office, setting out the performance of its functions in that year. In addition, the Crown Estate has an accounting officer who is answerable to Parliament for the stewardship of the Crown Estate’s resources.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, raised Section 3(1) of the 1961 Act. As I understand it, it requires the Crown Estate to have regard to all the circumstances of a case when evaluating best consideration. The Crown Estate includes social and environmental benefits alongside financial value and considers portfolio applications for both the short and the longer term, as well as the specific proposal, aligning with its broader purpose to create lasting and shared prosperity for the nation as it maintains and enhances the estate. For emerging sectors and nature recovery, applying best consideration in this way, by adopting a portfolio approach which balances financial drivers with broader value creation in different situations, has enabled the Crown Estate to support sector development and scaling to create long-term value.

For instance, floating wind test and demonstration sites prioritise innovation and enabling new technology over immediate financial returns. Although the initial commercial return may be lower, the long-term value from floating wind for the nation will lead to greater value over time. The Crown Estate structured the commercial terms for the Morlais tidal stream demonstration to support technology development and invested over £2 million in data-gathering to benefit the wider tidal stream sector, with a view to realising longer-term financial and social value.

The Crown Estate does not charge environmental organisations for leasing the seabed to enable non-commercial pilot activity linked to nature recovery and restoration. It is working with restoration practitioners to understand how best to accelerate activity to deliver seascape-scale projects. This comprehensive strategy demonstrates its commitment to considering all circumstances in evaluating what represents best consideration in each case. If I have not sufficiently covered the question from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, I will happily write to him.

I turn to the matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. Amendment 18 would require the Crown Estate to publish a review assessing the inclusivity of its policies, practices, procedures and assets. In particular, the review would consider the Crown Estate’s corporate governance and assess whether new board roles are required to support inclusion. While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of the amendment, I stress that the Crown Estate already takes the matter of inclusion very seriously. For example, it has recently launched an open-source measurement tool to help commercial property owners assess and improve building inclusivity. It has also co-created an inclusive design brief for new developments and established the Accessible and Inclusive Places Industry Group to foster sector-wide collaboration.

Amendment 19 would require the Crown Estate to review its methods of stakeholder consultation and to consider alignment assemblies as a method of involving local communities in decision-making. The Crown Estate already engages extensively with stakeholders across all its business areas. In addition, it has a clear value creation framework which ensures that all its decisions, including in relation to its strategy and investments, are considered through an environmental and social lens.

On reporting, Amendment 24, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would require the Crown Estate to disaggregate, in its accounts, capital and revenue for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. At present, the Crown Estate’s operations are not divided into business units by nation. Disaggregating costs associated with the activity in each nation is a complex task which would inevitably require a high degree of subjective judgment. While it is possible to identify gross revenues from each nation, reporting these without costs would be entirely misleading. Therefore, it is the Government’s view that it remains appropriate for the Crown Estate to continue to report on a whole-business basis, supplementing its annual report with its Wales review.

Amendment 31, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, would make it clear that commissioners may waive lease fees in exchange for full or part ownership of any projects or development. While the Government recognise the sentiment behind the amendment, the Crown Estate already has such flexibility. Section 3 of the Crown Estate Act 1961 states that it should get

“the best consideration in money or money’s worth”,

which would allow the Crown Estate to accept consideration in forms other than monetary payment, valued on a fair basis.

Finally, I will seek to address the concerns raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, in respect of disposal of assets. The Government’s view is that imposing a limit on disposals would undermine the flexibility needed to enable the Crown Estate to operate commercially and meet its core duties under the Act. For example, there may be instances where it makes commercial sense to dispose of high-value assets, particularly when taking a longer-term view of the business and its strategy. However, I understand there may be concerns in respect of the Crown Estate’s ability to fundamentally change the nature of the estate. Under the 1961 Act, the Crown Estate is required to maintain an estate in land, and this fundamental basis is not altered by the Bill.

I hope that I have been able to provide the appropriate reassurances to noble Lords—

Before the Minister sits down, I am grateful for what he said. Can he confirm that he has not ruled out amending the draft memorandum of understanding in the way that I proposed?

I would like to be helpful to the noble Lord. I am told that the memorandum of understanding deals exclusively with borrowing powers, so it may not be the most appropriate vehicle to insert that into.

Before the Minister sits down, I have a very simple question to ask him. We have had a very interesting debate, and I have understood much of it, but who does the Crown Estate—and therefore the Duchy of Cornwall—report to? Is it the Government or Parliament? Who controls them, or are they a law unto themselves? In spite of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I do not think the King comes into it.

It is a very good question, and I shall endeavour to find the answer and write to my noble friend.

I am grateful to all noble Lords. That was an excellent debate and a lot of ground was covered. My favourite line of the debate came from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. She put her finger on it when she said that the Crown Estate was not a “cuddly organisation”. It does not need to be—it does not report to anybody, apart from its commissioners, and that is at the heart of the issue that I think many noble Lords are grappling with. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, was pleased with my recent conversion to pre-appointment scrutiny. I cannot guarantee that that will continue. I understand a new leader is in the offing in my party, so who knows what will happen? The amendment that I put down was a useful way of probing some thinking around why the number of commissioners had to go from eight to 12. The response from the Minister was the sort of management jargon I used to learn at business school about 25 years ago. I am not much the wiser, but I will go back to Hansard and study his words carefully. Pre-appointment scrutiny, for the chair in particular, would be a very small but important change, particularly as we are dealing not with a cuddly organisation but with one which happens to own and manage some very important and valuable national assets. Therein lies the tension, and that is my concern. Turning to the points raised by my noble friend Lord Young, it was a forensic analysis. I am sure many noble Lords learned much from it, not least how to structure a really good argument, which has stumped the Minister. I am pleased that he is stumped because I am sure that he will go away and look at it—indeed, I implore him to do so, such that we do not have to return to this, at length, on Report. I hope that my noble friend Lord Holmes feels satisfied by the Minister’s response to his amendments. On the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, I presume that both he and I are pleased that the Crown Estate can already do what he wants it to do. I agree with him that it sounds completely obvious. I am afraid that I am not happy with the Minister’s response on the question of disposals; in fact, I am probably more concerned by his response than I was beforehand. I am not sure that the nation would expect the complexion of the assets held by the Crown Estate to significantly change, so we may well come back to that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 12 withdrawn.

Clause 2 agreed.

Amendment 13 not moved.

Amendment 14

Moved by

14: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— “Duty: protection of the seabed(1) The Crown Estate Commissioners must take steps to protect the seabed which forms part of the Crown Estate.(2) Protection under subsection (1) includes prohibiting all activities, business practices, leisure pursuits and other actions which damage permanently or temporarily the seabed.”

My Lords, it is a pleasure to begin the next group of amendments. I shall move Amendment 14 and speak to Amendments 15 and 17 in my name. In doing so, I draw attention to my technology interests as set out in the register. I also had a Private Member’s Bill, the Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill, in the last Session. We have already covered a wide range of incredibly important issues pertaining to the activities and operations of the Crown Estate. I gently and delicately suggest that Amendment 14 goes to perhaps the most significant issue that we could consider: the protection of the seabed around the United Kingdom. It is not an asset, nor a funding decision or a piece of plant or machinery, but the very bedrock of the ocean—one of the most important parts of our planet. There are currently practices, business and otherwise, carried on daily that temporarily and permanently damage the seabed. If such activities were taking place on the Crown Estate’s lands—for example, stripping away all the topsoil or taking away all the foundations of the buildings—it would of course not be permitted and be swiftly stopped, so why can the seabed which comes under the custody of the Crown Estate be so abused? Again, it is not an asset or a property, or a piece of land, but Poseidon’s pastures, and we must take this opportunity to protect them.

18:30:00

Amendment 15 sets out some objectives for the Crown Estate, not least around the potential role it could play with innovation and new technologies such as artificial intelligence. We have already seen in so many ways this afternoon the unique role and position the Crown Estate occupies. It seems only right and proper to take the opportunity for the Crown Estate to play a key role in the development of these technologies. These technologies in our human hands, and which are human led, will be the deliverers of growth we so need in this nation at any time, but especially in this time.

Similarly, the Crown Estate should have an objective around food security if we consider the carbon miles and the cost to the planet of importing foods from around the world. It is worth taking a moment to give more than a congratulatory nod to the Netherlands, which is the second largest exporter of food stuffs—not in Europe but in the world. It got to that position because it intended it, willed it and brought it into being, largely with similar soils, outlook and climate to the United Kingdom. Due to the carbon miles and the geopolitical situation we find ourselves in and will certainly find ourselves in going forward, the Crown Estate could play a key role partnering around the whole issue of food security.

Amendment 17 deals with nature prescribing and the positive impact that could have across our society. We are currently suffering a mental well-being epidemic in this nation—a nation which has some of the most spectacular woodland and stunning shoreline on the planet. It would be positive if the Crown Estate could partner with other agencies and work with NHS England and the bodies in the devolved nations to come up with a major UK-wide nature prescribing programme for the benefit of all of us. It would put those natural assets to such a positive use, with relatively no cost involved.

Amendments 14, 15 and 17 are about protecting the seabed, our population, mental well-being, and putting positive objectives forward for the future. I look forward to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chair of Peers for the Planet—oh, I am not co-chair, I am chair now! I am sorry, I must have an old version of my speech. I will speak to Amendment 25 in my name in this group. I am grateful for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Young of Cookham. I am very glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, in his widening of the debate about the role of the Crown Estate into some of the huge challenges that we face as a nation and as a society. This group of amendments takes up the themes suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, which challenge us to answer the question of how the core responsibilities of the Crown Estate —the financial responsibilities and the objectives of creating an income stream for the Treasury—fit in and interact with other major responsibilities and other pieces of legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Young, was talking about this in relation to tenancy questions, while the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was asking whether the Crown Estate is constrained in some of the things it wants to do—the environmental and climate change issues that I am interested in, for example—by the 1961 Act, and whether it is unable to recognise other responsibilities and objectives that the Government have put into legislation since that Act. My amendment tries to ensure that the Crown Estate does what it can as an important part of our national wealth to contribute to combating the nature and climate crises. It would equip the Crown Estate to play its role and future-proof that commitment against a future change of government. It does so by ensuring the Crown Estate has a statutory duty to contribute to national efforts to meet our climate and nature targets, as set out in the Climate Change Act and the Environment Act. In relation to the seabed, about which the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, spoke so eloquently, the amendment would also safeguard the Crown Estate’s ability to fulfil its stated mission to, “take a leading role in stewarding the UK’s natural environment”, by requiring seabed leaseholders to meet a new conservation condition. The amendment would enable the Crown Estate to continue to fulfil its role of creating wealth for His Majesty’s Treasury while recognising that, as it moves away from being solely an asset owner and takes on new borrowing and investment powers, it should also be accompanied by obligations to deliver for nature and the climate. The last significant modernisation of the Crown Estate was over 60 years ago, when the issues relating to climate change and the threats to the natural environment were far less understood and far lower down the national and global agenda. Today, however, the impacts of climate change are undeniable. Only last week, a new report on the state of the world’s climate led by international scientists concluded that: “Much of the very fabric of life on Earth is imperilled. We are stepping into a critical and unpredictable new phase of the climate crisis”. The report highlights that we are still moving in the wrong direction, with emissions and their often catastrophic effects, which we have seen so recently, still rising. At Second Reading, the Government did not seek to deny the threat or the urgency of the climate and nature crises, nor the need for the Crown Estate to play its part in combatting them. Rather, they suggested that a statutory duty was not necessary because: “the Crown Estate has existing governance structures in place to ensure that environmental impacts are a central consideration of its investment decisions”.—[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1021.] But there is an important difference between considering environmental impacts in investment decisions and making sure that those decisions actually contribute to our nature and climate targets. My amendment supports the Crown Estate not just to think about minimising the impacts on the environment but to look at the contribution it can make that will bring us closer to our climate and nature goals. I welcome the important progress that the Crown Estate is making through its new nature goals and the initiatives it has taken, including the Marine Delivery Routemap, but our amendment seeks to embed such initiatives in legislative form. It is constructive work that is already being done, but—I go back to it not being a cuddly organisation—we need to embed it and to future-proof it, and we can do that only by changing the Bill. The need for a legislative base to underpin environmental responsibilities was, in fact, recognised in the Scottish Crown Estate Act. I believe that my amendment reflects a similar, and indeed even stronger, objective by linking the contribution to our legally binding targets. I know that there is concern about the possibility of these provisions in some way encroaching on the commercial independence of the Crown Estate, but my amendment does not seek to constrain that commercial independence. It simply commits the organisation only to “take all reasonable steps to contribute to … the achievement of” our nature and climate targets, in line with the legally binding targets the Government have already committed to. There is a growing recognition that we have to integrate nature and climate responsibilities across our national and local bodies and across all organisations that discharge public duties. As the Minister will recall, there have been a number of Bills affecting regulators and public bodies on which we have brought forward amendments similar to this and often succeeded in integrating nature and climate responsibilities into legislation—but we are doing it piecemeal at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, has a Private Member’s Bill before the House this week that gives us the opportunity to take a more coherent and comprehensive approach. I support that—I hope we will have coherent and comprehensive support—but today, and as we go through this Bill, we have the opportunity to make a very specific contribution through the work of the Crown Estate. I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to amending the Bill in the ways that I suggest.

My Lords, I add my support to Amendment 25, to which I have put my name, alongside the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Young of Cookham. I think that we have all agreed that the Crown Estate is not cuddly, but it is also big and hugely important. It is the third-biggest landowner in this country and it is a major owner of the seabed, covering an area twice the landmass of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, so it is absolutely crucial that it does the right thing. The decisions it makes about land and sea are important not just for energy and climate change but for biodiversity, food resilience, flood risk, water management, and the quality and quantity of water—a whole plethora of things. That is why I bang on about the need for a land use framework, but you could almost say that the Crown Estate could have a mini land use framework and a mini sea use framework all of its own, because it is sufficiently large a player. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said, we have national targets set in statute for net zero and biodiversity recovery. It is absolutely clear that the Government will simply not be able to make these targets without the Crown Estate playing a full role, as it is one of the big boys on the block. For example, the offshore wind partnerships that we have heard about in collaboration with Great British Energy will leverage £60 billion of private investment and provide energy to nearly 2 million homes. The Crown Estate is also fundamental to economic and environmental issues, including flood risks, owning as it does great tracts of the coast. Carbon capture, use and storage, if you believe in it, is a big part of the net zero strategy—I have my doubts that it will actually play that role—but it depends hugely on the Crown Estate playing its role, otherwise it simply will not be able to happen. We have to recognise that the Crown Estate is a massive player, including in coastal habitats which are uniquely important in UK terms. We are a major staging post for marine and bird migration as a result of our globally important coastal habitats. The Crown Estate is big in all of those things.

18:45:00

The Minister said in his Second Reading response —I paraphrase here, and he will probably shudder when he hears me—that this Bill gives the Crown Estate more flexibility and, as a result, it will be able to do more good things for all these areas. I hope that I am not misrepresenting him. That is probably true, but it is not enough. This thing is too big to leave to the good will of the Crown Estate commissioners or some theory of trickle down for the environment as a result of a more vibrant economy. The Minister may say that the Crown Estate already has a strategic objective on promoting the natural environment and biodiversity. Indeed, in one of his responses to an earlier amendment, he outlined a whole range of good things that the Crown Estate is doing on biodiversity—but they are all voluntary; they are all at the whim of the Crown Estate commissioners. That is just too risky in the case of an organisation as big, influential and crucial as it is to legal commitments that the Government must make.

If the Government are to have a sporting chance of meeting the statutorily binding targets in the climate Act and the Environment Act, they need to recognise that the non-cuddly and highly impactful Crown Estate needs to be specifically tasked with making its important contribution to meeting these targets. That is what this amendment, so well presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, would do more effectively than any of the others that I have seen laid out in the amendment paper or heard discussed elsewhere. If there is indeed this good will and reality of commitment in the heart of the Crown Estate to do the right thing by climate and biodiversity, I do not believe that this would be regarded as an undue interference with its powers. The reality is that the Crown Estate, like anybody else, has to recognise that there are statutory targets which must be met and in which they have a big role. I hope the Minister will just give in and accept this amendment.

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Local Nature Partnership. I will be over in the Isles of Scilly on Wednesday and I hope that I can bring good news from this debate, but we will see when the Minister responds. My noble friend Lady Kramer is absolutely right, as other Members have said, that the Crown Estate is an organisation very focused on its financial returns and helping the Treasury out with raising cash on behalf of taxpayers. That is all very noble—in fact, it acts very much as if it is looking at its fiduciary duty as we would see in a financial organisation or corporate structure. I congratulate the Crown Estate, first, on its Marine Delivery Routemap. It is an excellent document that came out last month and shows great intention—although I would be interested to hear from the Minister how it will co-ordinate that route map with the Marine Management Organisation and its marine plans. How do the two work together? How do we make sure they are not in conflict? Secondly, I very much welcome its High-Integrity Marine Natural Capital Markets in the UK—another road map for action—that was launched earlier this year, here in Parliament. The third thing that I welcome, although with some incredulity that we did not do it decades ago, is the detailed mapping of the seabed around our islands. One would think it essential not only that we do that but that we have understood it for some considerable time, given the importance to us of that national asset. Also, I congratulate the previous Government on declaring a ban on bottom trawling and similar measures—dredging—in 13 marine protected areas, moving forward in that way in March this year. When I looked at the maps, it was not all those MPAs, and others are not covered, but congratulations on that. I understood that it was the previous Government’s intention that the remaining marine protected areas should be protected in a similar way by the end of this year. I would be very interested to hear from the Government whether they wish to implement that as well. I certainly hope so. One of the things that particularly came out to me, when I read that Marine Delivery Routemap, began on page 6, where it starts to write its own objectives. Let me read out the first sentence of that and those first two objectives. This is the Crown Estate’s purpose and strategy, in its own document. It says that: “At the heart of everything we do lie four core objectives”. I will read out just two, but remember that these are the first two, not the last two. The first is: “Be a leader in supporting the UK towards a net zero carbon and energy-secure future”. That is excellent. The second is: “Take a leading role in stewarding the UK’s natural environment and biodiversity”. That is excellent as well. I suggest to the Government that we just paste those objectives into this Bill. The Crown Estate clearly would welcome that, and we would have a solution near to what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and other noble Lords who signed up to the amendment require. It is there to be accepted. I also have Amendment 28, which is around the seabed. I very much welcome Amendment 14 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, as well; we are trying to achieve the same thing here. Importantly, the seabed is not just a source of huge biodiversity for us as a nation but a huge carbon store. It is estimated that the first 10 centimetres and the flora and vegetation on the seabed accounts for something like a quarter of a billion tonnes of CO₂—which can be disturbed strongly by fishing methods. It is an important carbon sink but one where we have an important well of biodiversity. It is incredulous to me that the owner of that seabed, an owner of property, allows it to be despoiled in the way very well described by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. Surely we need to move beyond those MPAs, to stop those destructive forms of exploitation. If we change the objectives of the Crown Estate to reflect its own intentions, it could indeed take those measures to protect that biodiversity and to grow that carbon sink—sea-grass and marl and the areas of salt marshes and kelp. Those are important areas of carbon reduction and carbon sink as well as of biodiversity. It is absolutely clear. The Government should take up the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, which is very much in line with the Crown Estate’s own objective. One thing has not been mentioned on why this is important. One of the Government’s objectives, which I am fully behind, is to do a lot of the pre-environmental and technical work before licences are given out to offshore wind operators. That will speed up the process. It makes it a lot more holistic and makes a lot of sense. However, given that role with the Crown Estate, there is a conflict of interest that potentially arises between trying to get income from those leases while protecting the environment. At the moment, the emphasis is on the financial side and making money out of the leases. Only by putting these objectives as statutory into the Crown Estate can we be sure that there is not that conflict of interest, and that those objectives are balanced when those leases are put out. We have boasted of a 30 by 30 objective internationally, nationally and in a number of areas regionally in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. There are only five and a quarter years until we get to 1 January 2030. Clearly, in marine—and in terrestrial as well—it is essential that the objectives of the Crown Estate reflect that objective and make it achievable in some way, otherwise there is a huge risk that we will not reach those government objectives.

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I congratulate him on the work that he is doing in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. I support these amendments for two reasons. First, earlier this year the noble Baroness, Lady Willis, and I discovered that Defra’s JNCC had produced a report advising the Government not to drill for oil in MPAs. We had a debate about it and the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, basically said, “Drilling for oil is more important than protecting the environment”. I do not know what has happened to that. Perhaps my noble friend the Minister could come back to me at some point and say, but that was a very low point. The reports were very good, and I do not think that the oil demand for this country needed to have particular oil wells. I might be wrong, but I think it was in the 33rd oil and gas licensing round. We must be pretty careful about this. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, there is a balance to be drawn. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has talked to the fishermen’s association in Cornwall. I have been talking to it, at its request, and it is concerned. It is a reasonable concern, because he is quite right about some of the methods used in fishing at the moment, which are pretty unacceptable. On the other hand, those fishermen are frightened that, when we get these wonderful floating windmills in the south-west or anywhere else, they will be told that they cannot finish within several miles of the installation. I do not know whether that applies to the supply cables and everything else like that, but there needs to be a proper consultation about who needs what, how big these areas of protection are and, if necessary, where the fishermen can fish instead. I am told that there is a report from Defra that was commissioned a year ago, entitled “Working on the Marine Special Protection Project”. I do not know whether the Minister knows about this. It has not been published but it would be a very good contribution to the debate if it could be and discussed with the fishing industry and the other people involved in offshore, and maybe a proper conclusion—

As we are in Committee, I would just like to answer one of those questions. I do speak to the Cornish Fish Producers’ Organisation and absolutely commend Chris Ranford, who operates it, for his great work in that area. The noble Lord is right. One thing that needs to come out of these planning areas is the fishing industry having the right spaces to fulfil what it wants to do in economic growth and the good things that happen to the local and coastal economies. This is important and I am thankful to him for mentioning it.

I am grateful to the noble Lord. We both need to have another discussion with Chris and his colleagues, as does the Minister, to make sure we can come up with something that works for everyone. I end by congratulating the noble Lord on his appointment; I look forward to working with him.

19:00:00

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendments 29 and 30 in this group. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for the powerful points he has made, particularly around our 2030 commitment, and I have co-signed his Amendment 28. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Young of Old Scone; I very much support Amendment 25 and nearly all the amendments in this group. Adding environmental protections to the Bill is a key element of our work. My Amendment 29 would require the commissioners to carry out their duties under subsection (3) with regard to sustainable development, economic development, regeneration, social well-being and environmental well-being. We welcome the plans to update the borrowing and investment powers of the Crown Estate, but we strongly feel that new and greater roles should come with updated responsibilities. The Crown Estate sits in a unique space and position. The land assets are owned by the Crown and managed by the Crown Estate and its commissioners, and they are mandated by Parliament to deliver a profit for the Treasury. The Crown Estate, in effect, floats in a unique position: it manages its land holding and assets, which really belong to the nation, but it is managed as a sub-department of the Treasury, away from much parliamentary scrutiny. The year 1961 was a long time ago; we lived in a very different world then, as has been said. Our understanding of the environment and the need for nature protection was far less developed, as was any sense of facing an acute environmental and nature crisis. The Bill, as the Government have drafted it, is far too narrow; that is why all these amendments have been tabled. I understand the need for expediency and for the Government to put in the two clauses to amend the borrowing powers so that we can get on with GB Energy. That is all fine, but you cannot revisit a 1961 Act and expect to solely put in two clauses without updating all the other aspects of life and the world that have developed since. My Amendment 29 shamelessly and purposely copies the text from the Scottish Crown Estate Act 2019, as I believe that these provisions are a useful precedent in our deliberation of these matters here today. When the Scottish Parliament considered many of the exact same matters that we are looking at, its conclusion was that these updated powers were useful, necessary and a helpful update to the powers contained in the original Crown Estate Act 1961. Further, they were agreed and enacted by that Parliament, and have been in force for over five years now. Unless the Minister wants to contradict me, my understanding is that, since they were passed, these new powers have not had any undue impacts on the ability of the Scottish Crown Estate to conduct its business free of undue regulation or burden. The devolution question has already been discussed, but my thinking in tabling this amendment was that I felt, in updating responsibilities, that there was value in seeking to ensure the same duties and responsibilities applied to all the devolved aspects of the Crown Estate’s land in Great Britain, and I felt that this was useful for the Crown Estate’s ability to operate and not be burdensome. My Amendment 30 places a nature recovery duty on the Crown Estate. The amendment defines a nature recovery duty as including “taking steps to … embed nature into spatial planning and seabed leasing … allocate space for nature recovery in all projects, and … invest in clean energy projects”. I thank the Wildlife and Countryside Link for its briefing on the Bill, and its recommendation that this amendment should be included. I recognise and support the critical role that the Crown Estate has in the delivery of offshore wind generation and the role that the Bill has to enhance this going forward, but we really need to decarbonise our power generation, fight climate change and protect nature. However, in updating the 1961 Act, the Bill represents a missed opportunity to ensure that the Crown Estate also has a requirement to support the Government’s obligations towards achieving the nature targets under the Environment Act 2021. All public bodies in the UK are presently not required to consider the environmental costs and benefits of their decisions and investments, as there is no statutory requirement for them to do so. I support the Private Member’s Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and will speak when we debate it on Friday; if it is passed, we will not have to amend every Bill one at a time as there will be a cross-cutting duty, so I encourage the Government to look at that Private Member’s Bill and support it. This duty is particularly important to the Crown Estate due to the very large area of its land and sea holdings and the fact that many of its sites are extremely ecologically sensitive. It is worth reiterating that the Crown Estate has 200,000 acres of land, 12,000 kilometres of coastline and a total seabed area bigger than the combined landmass of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Crown Estate owns more land than the entire landmass of Luxembourg and is the third-largest landowner in the UK. The land under the Crown Estate is vast, diverse and of high ecological importance. The marine land, and the seabed in particular, are important as blue carbon stores, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. Equally important are the foreshore, coastline and many other precious ecological sites. I want to publicly recognise that the Crown Estate has existing governance structures and strong policy objectives in place to try to ensure that environmental impacts are a central consideration in its investment decisions. I also note that the Crown Estate has recently committed to embed nature throughout its policy-making process. It has begun consultation on the specific nature recovery strategy, but I understand that this final document is yet to be released. My amendment is not a criticism of its stewardship role; it is an attempt to support the existing duty but place it on a statutory footing. My amendment supports and builds on the work that the Crown Estate is already doing, which proves to me that the preparatory work is already being done to ensure that this amendment would work in practice. I feel it is essential that this work is given a statutory basis, and that is exactly what my amendment seeks to do. It is essential that the Crown Estate makes an active contribution to meeting environmental nature recovery targets and contributes to climate mitigation and adaption targets. For this to happen, my belief is that a binding target is required.

My Lords, I will just make two very quick comments. First, there has been a clear message to the Minister that, in one way or another, this Committee feels strongly that we should have in statute an expression of the climate change, environmental and nature issues. That should not be seen as a criticism of the Crown Estate as it is today but simply says that this is so important that the Crown Estate should not be given the freedom to change its mind on those issues without the intervention of Parliament. I do not want to put the Minister on the spot, but my second brief issue concerns a previous answer, when there may have been some confusion between the memorandum of understanding and the framework agreement. I do not ask him to do this now, but could he go back and look at those two rather different things, as we need to approach them both differently? That would be exceedingly helpful, but I do not want to put him on the spot at this moment.

My Lords, I will speak briefly to this group on the objectives and duties of the Crown Estate. Many of the amendments relate to climate change and nature, and many noble Lords have spoken who are much more knowledgeable about these topics than I am, so I do not propose to add further to those points. As set out in today’s list, one must follow the rules, but I look forward to hearing the thoughts of the Minister on that. My Amendments 37A to 37C look at another important aspect of potential disruption caused by investments by the Crown Estate, which is to local economies and national economies when it comes to shipping. I am looking to the Minister to reassure me and your Lordships’ House that very important local and national economic activities are considered appropriately by the Crown Estate, and that it does not look at what it does in a narrow and short-term way but thinks about making the cake bigger for everybody over the longer term. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made several points about the impact on commercial fishing: it should be quantified, consulted on and mitigated where possible, and I say the same for commercial shipping. Some 90% of our goods arrive by sea, and ports are often quite specialised in the goods they handle. Sadly, you cannot move a port, so you have to be quite careful not to obstruct well-established shipping lanes and ensure that the proximity of offshore developments does not cause excessive risk to vessels, particular larger vessels, were they ever to get into trouble. Comments on that would be greatly appreciated. I did not put down an amendment on this, but it is strongly related. Where ports want to expand and they are surrounded by Crown Estate land, the balance of power is sometimes a little one sided. I would like some reassurance that the Crown Estate will act not only in its self-interest for short-term gain but will think about the longer term and growing the pie for the whole economy and the Crown Estate within that. I do not propose to add anything further at this point, and I look forward to hearing the views of the Minister.

I thank all noble Lords for their powerful arguments made during this debate. I will address the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Holmes, Lord Teverson and Lord Young, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Young and Lady Vere, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, which all seek to make changes to the Crown Estate’s objectives and duties. Before I move on, I will address two specific questions from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, which I may not pick up in my subsequent remarks. He asked about conflicts of interest with leasing rounds. Under UK habitats regulations, the Crown Estate is deemed to be a competent authority for offshore wind leasing rounds. As such, it has a legal obligation to carry out a plan-level habitats regulation assessment for planned activities such as an offshore wind leasing round. It could be challenged through legal action if it fails to do this in line with the prescribed requirements. The noble Lord also asked about the marine delivery route map’s interaction with the offshore wind report. The marine delivery route map gives the holistic context across sectors and sea users to support and inform individual sector delivery planning, while the offshore wind report offers technical insights and data, with both working in concert to ensure that offshore land development is efficient, sustainable and aligned with national and environmental goals. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, also asked about a point of clarification. I will go away and check the questions she raises. Obviously, I apologise if I have inadvertently confused the two things she mentioned. Amendments 14 and 28, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Holmes and Lord Teverson, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, seek to introduce new duties for the Crown Estate to protect the condition of the seabed. Amendment 14 would require the Crown Estate commissioners to take steps to protect the seabed, which forms part of the Crown Estate, and would include a prohibition on all activities, business practices, leisure pursuits and other actions that permanently or temporarily cause damage to the seabed.

19:15:00

Amendment 28 would require the commissioners to pay particular regard to maintaining the seabed in good condition, especially in respect of biodiversity and the organic storage of carbon, when exercising their duties under the 1961 Act. While the Government wholeheartedly support the spirit behind these amendments, we also support the existing regulations and legislation, which already give widespread and balanced protection to the seabed. The UK Marine Strategy Regulations 2010, which apply UK wide, place a duty on the Secretary of State and devolved policy authorities to achieve good environment status across the UK marine area. “Good environment status” is defined as

“the environmental status of marine waters where these provide ecologically diverse and dynamic oceans and seas which are clean, healthy and productive within their intrinsic conditions, and the use of the marine environment is at a level that is sustainable, thus safeguarding the potential for uses and activities by current and future generations”.

Regulation 3(3) clarifies that the definition of “marine waters” includes the seabed and subsoil. Where the seabed is also designated a marine protected area, the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2017, the Conservation of Offshore Marine Habitats and Species Regulations 2017 and the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 provide additional protections. There is also a marine protected area target under the Environment Act 2021.

In addition to these protections, all leases granted by the Crown Estate for development that affects the seabed require the leaseholder to have the necessary statutory consents before development can begin. Statutory consent can take the form of a development consent order, a marine licence or planning consent under the Town and Country Planning Act.

I make this comment as a former board member of the Marine Management Organisation. The 2010 regulations, in particular, which have come through Europe, have been very ineffective, as has much on the Minister’s list. Hence, I believe it important that we put the responsibility down to the owner, rather than to some high-level legislation and regulations that departments have not paid a lot of attention to in the past.

I am sure the noble Lord is much more expert in those things than I am. I take what he says seriously. The decision to grant leases is informed by advice from the relevant statutory nature conservation body, either via the statutory consent process or, where appropriate, direct engagement. It can include enhancement requirements. Statutory nature conservation bodies are responsible for providing advice to government and regulators on the management, monitoring and assessment of marine protected areas. For those activities that are deemed exempt from statutory consents, the Crown Estate requires applicants to demonstrate that advice has been sought from relevant environmental bodies to inform their decision on leasing. More broad protections, which would prohibit even temporary damage anywhere on the UK territorial seabed owned by the Crown Estate, would also cause major disruption to many critical marine sectors. These include, for example, offshore renewable energy, which requires the burial of power cables in the seabed to transport energy to shore; the laying of subsea and telecom cables, which carry 99% of all intercontinental data traffic for the UK; the UK’s ports, harbours, marinas and shipping channels within UK waters that require dredging for the creation and maintenance of navigable depths; and the manufacturing industry, which relies on marine aggregates, which are used, for instance, on major construction projects, beach replenishment and coastal protection schemes across the UK. The Government therefore consider these amendments to be unnecessary given the existing statutory protections and the Crown Estate’s existing practices. I turn next to Amendments 37A, 37B and 37C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, which would all place new duties in respect of granting licences to access the seabed. Amendments 37A and 37B would prohibit the Crown Estate from granting new licences to access the seabed unless it has considered the impact of those licences on commercial fishing and commercial shipping. While the Government support the spirit behind these amendments, the Bill will not directly impact how much commercial fishing or shipping takes place in areas managed by the Crown Estate, nor is the Crown Estate responsible for the regulation of these sectors. The Crown Estate collaborates extensively with industry stakeholders, statutory nature conservation bodies, environmental non-governmental organisations and marine licensing bodies to ensure activities on the seabed are conducted responsibly and enable a restored and thriving marine environment. A recent blog post from the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations, for example, noted on engagement with the Crown Estate ahead of the offshore wind leasing round 5 in the Celtic Sea that the “process succeeded in identifying and avoiding the places where it would be most harmful to the fishing industry to see turbines installed. The cooperation between the Crown Estate and fishermen was unprecedented and the outcome was a positive one”. The Crown Estate has also invested £50 million in the offshore wind evidence and change programme, which includes several initiatives to consider and support the fishing industry. I will give two examples. The first is the fisheries sensitivity mapping and displacement modelling project, which identifies areas of offshore wind development that present risks to the fishing industry to try to reduce the likelihood of conflicts between the two sectors. The second example is the ecological effects of floating offshore wind research programme, which focuses on understanding how marine ecosystems will react to the planned large-scale expansion of floating offshore wind in UK waters over the next decade. The goal of this programme is to change the way the Crown Estate deploys floating offshore wind on a large scale, ensuring nature recovery and enabling co-existence with other sea users, including fisheries. Amendment 37C would prohibit the Crown Estate from granting new licences to access the seabed unless it has considered the impact of those licences on coastal communities. Coastal communities are already a primary consideration of any investment decision by the Crown Estate. For example, it has specifically designed the leasing process for its offshore wind leasing round 5 opportunity in the Celtic Sea in such a way that developers have to make commitments to deliver social and environmental value as part of the development of their new wind farms. Tender bidders are required to think innovatively and constructively about how their developments can create a legacy of healthier, more resilient, fairer, more vibrant and more prosperous communities which stretch beyond the lifetime of the wind farm leases for the benefit of generations to come. Commitments made during the tender process will be monitored, reported on and enforced throughout the lifetime of the relevant round 5 developments. We could of course make this an explicit duty for the Crown Estate in legislation, but if we did that then there are many other points we have debated today that could also be added as statutory duties. As I said earlier, a key purpose of the 1961 Act was to repeal various detailed statutory provisions that had built up over 150 years previously, to avoid the Crown Estate having to work through a maze of requirements for each investment decision. I turn next to Amendments 15, 17 and 29, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell. These amendments seek to create new objectives for, or impose new duties on, the Crown Estate. Specifically, Amendment 15 would require the Crown Estate to seek to prioritise the objectives of UK food security and to support the development and promotion of new technologies, including artificial intelligence, in the managing and turning to account of Crown Estate land. Amendment 17 would require the commissioners to publish a review assessing how Crown Estate assets can be deployed to support nature prescribing. The amendment would also require the commissioners to work with NHS England and devolved counterparts to enable the Crown Estate’s nature assets to form part of a major UK-wide nature prescribing scheme. Amendment 29 would require the commissioners, when exercising their duty in Section 1(3) of the 1961 Act, to act in a way best calculated to further the achievement of sustainable development and to seek to manage assets in a way likely to contribute to the promotion or improvement of economic development, regeneration, and social and environmental well-being. Before I speak to these amendments it is worth reiterating that the Crown Estate is a commercial business, independent from government, that operates for profit and competes in the marketplace for investment opportunities, yet it is currently restricted in its ability to do so. As I have already set out, the Government believe that it is right that the Crown Estate continues to operate as a commercial enterprise. A key purpose of the 1961 Act, as I have noted, was to repeal various detailed statutory provisions that had built up over 150 years previously, which were hampering the effective management of the estate. Since then, the Crown Estate has shown itself to be a trusted and successful organisation with a proven track record in effective management. That is a valuable outcome, which I stress we need to be careful not to undermine. This track record includes its commitment to enable the development of new net-zero technologies and to invest in artificial intelligence to enhance its habitat and environmental monitoring system. The Crown Estate has also made it clear that it is prioritising food security alongside nature recovery and enabling the diversification of income for its tenant farmers. The investment and borrowing powers proposed in this Bill will allow for even greater investment in these areas by the Crown Estate. The Government believe that the Crown Estate’s existing duties give it a clear focus, leading to a consistently significant return to the Exchequer to support the funding of public services. At the same time, the Crown Estate is already able to, and does, focus on activities which also closely align with wider national needs, including energy security and sustainable economic growth. As a public body, the Crown Estate seeks to work with the grain of prevailing government policy. I turn next to Amendments 25 and 30, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. Amendment 25 would create a new duty for the Crown Estate commissioners in the exercise of their functions to take all reasonable steps to contribute to the achievement of targets under Part 1 of the Climate Change Act 2008; the achievement of biodiversity targets under Sections 1 to 3 of the Environment Act 2021; and to adapt to any current or predicted impacts of climate change as identified in the most recent report under Section 56 of the Climate Change Act 2008. This amendment would also require the Crown Estate to include conditions in all seabed leases for the leaseholder to contribute to the conservation and enhancement of the natural environment. Amendment 30 would create a new nature recovery duty. This would require the Crown Estate to take steps to embed nature into spatial planning and seabed leasing, allocate space for nature recovery in all projects and invest in clean energy projects. Before I explain the Government’s position, let me express strong support for the intention behind these amendments. It is right that the public and private sectors make every contribution they can to help achieve our climate change targets, and the Crown Estate should continue to be a national trailblazer in this regard. The Crown Estate has committed to becoming a net-zero carbon business by 2030, aligning with the 1.5 degrees trajectory, and will prioritise activities which help enable a reduction in national carbon emissions, such as building net-zero homes, transitioning its holdings to sustainable agricultural practices and working in partnership with government to meet the national renewable energy targets. On the biodiversity targets in the Environment Act, the Crown Estate is committed to delivering a measurable increase in biodiversity by 2030. It will publish its delivery plan to meet this goal next year, which will include commitments to restore habitats in line with targets in the Environment Act. As I have already noted, all leases granted by the Crown Estate for development that affects the seabed already require the leaseholder to have the necessary statutory consents in place before development can begin. The Crown Estate also published its approach on nature recovery last week, where it has committed to delivering increased biodiversity, to protect and restore freshwater, marine and coastal systems, and to increase social well-being benefits from nature. However, as I have already set out, the reforms being introduced in this Bill are not intended to alter the fundamental statutory basis of the Crown Estate as a commercial business independent from government. The commissioners operate under a clear commercial objective, as set out in the 1961 Act, to maintain and enhance the value of the estate. I know that some noble Lords take a different view as to how the Crown Estate should operate, but it is the Government’s view that the existing statutory commercial focus, coupled with adherence to environmental and other nature requirements as set out in other legislation, as well as the need in the 1961 Act for the commissioners to have due regard to the requirements of good management, remains the best approach. One of the functions of the Crown Estate is to return its profits to the Exchequer each year, and it has returned a combined total of more than £4 billion in the last decade. This is used to fund the priorities of the Government of the day, which currently include spending on policy that helps achieve our climate change goals. The more the Crown Estate’s core purpose in legislation is expanded, particularly with additional duties or objectives that may unnecessarily complicate, conflict with or risk compromising the achievement of that core commercial objective, the harder—

I know the Minister is anxious to get on to the dinner break business, but I think he misunderstands exactly what we are saying by asking for biodiversity and climate change target achievement to be included. The reality is that we want the Crown Estate commissioners to be able to walk, talk and chew gum. They have to be able to be smart enough to deliver on the commercial and economic imperatives that the Minister has been absolutely clear about—he has repeated them several times—and do the biodiversity and net zero delivery at the same time. That is doable but not if, as the Minister has just done, he continues to say and reinforce for the Crown Estate commissioners that their primary purpose is a commercial one, because that will always take precedence.

19:30:00

I thank my noble friend for that intervention. With the greatest respect, it is not a lack of understanding; it is just a slight difference of opinion. As I said, I have great sympathy with the motives underlying this amendment, but the Government would seek to achieve them in a slightly different way from my noble friend.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way; I will make one final intervention. I welcome very much what he said about biodiversity and the wish to do that, but he has not mentioned biodiversity net gain. It is a government policy to introduce marine biodiversity net gain. Will that apply? As one of the co-developers to the Crown Estate, will they be responsible for that when they implement that policy?

I will be completely honest and say I do not know the answer to that question. I will find out and let the noble Lord know. I hope these explanations have been helpful and that the noble Lords, Lord Holmes, Lord Teverson and Lord Young, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Young, will feel able not to press their amendments as a result.

My Lords, I thank everybody who has taken part in this incredibly important debate, and the Minister for his thorough answer. All I would gently suggest is that if all those provisions, policies and words are having impact, how come the scarring, scraping, defacing and destruction of the seabed continues? Not being one to shy away from sporting analogies, I hazard a guess that the issues raised in this group of amendments could well bring the Government to their first game of ping-pong in this new Session; but for now, until Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 14 withdrawn.

Amendment 15 not moved.

House resumed.