Prime Minister and First Minister of Wales Meetings

Question

15:20:00

Asked by

To ask His Majesty’s Government what meetings the Prime Minister has had with the First Minister of Wales in the past month, and what matters were discussed in those meetings.

My Lords, the Prime Minister speaks regularly with the First Minister of Wales as part of the Government’s reset relationship with the Welsh Government. The Prime Minister and First Minister spoke last week on a range of issues, including how we deliver our shared priorities. Of course, the Prime Minister and First Minister work together on behalf of our two Governments on the Council of the Nations and Regions, which is due to meet again imminently. That is in addition to their engagement through IDR structures.

I thank the Minister for her Answer. The people of Wales were promised at the last general election that, if they voted Labour, they would have two Governments, at either end of the M4, improving their lives. But yesterday the First Minister of Wales gave a speech suggesting ruptures in that relationship, coining the new phrase, “The new Welsh way”, and suggesting certain requests for this Government to deliver on. So which if any of those requests are this Government going to enact?

My Lords, the First Minister’s speech reflected the reset relationship between our two Governments based on respect, collaboration and delivery. The Labour Party is a broad synagogue, and we actively engage with people of all views. It will not surprise noble Lords that we are two Governments working together, but Welsh Labour has its own identity and, of course, we do not agree about everything. But we are two Governments working together with a shared set of values and priorities that reflect what matters most to the people of Wales, which is why we have delivered so much for them in our first 10 months.

My Lords, yesterday the First Minister made an important speech in Cardiff noting the changed and positive relationship with the UK Government since last July. But just as the wonderful programme “Gavin and Stacey” often showed, what is right for Billericay will not always be right for Barry. Does my noble friend agree that this can be seen as a positive example of devolution and disagreement between partners? It is grown-up modern government.

I thank my noble friend for the question. I really hoped that she would start her question with “What’s occurin’?”, because it sounds so much better in her accent than in mine. There are many things we learn from “Gavin and Stacey”, not least that no man is an island—except Barry. On that basis, we are clear that devolution in action is about two Governments working together for the people of Barry, Basildon and Billericay—and for the people of Burslem in my former constituency.

My Lords, I declare my interests as in the register. Tourism is a vital component of the Welsh economy. What conversations have the Minister or the Prime Minister had with the First Minister about the Welsh Government’s ill-thought-through and short-sighted decision to introduce a tourism tax?

The noble Lord makes a very interesting point—I wonder whether he made it to his Conservative colleagues on Great Yarmouth Borough Council, who were the first to introduce a tourism tax. The tourism tax brings in £33 million a year. There are ongoing conversations, but this is devolution in action, and it is a matter for the Welsh Government.

My Lords: “In this new generation, it must be the people and communities of Wales who profit from our energy gifts. We need a different approach to the one which just hands the power and resources to the Crown Estate over which we have no say”. Those are not my words but those said yesterday by the Welsh Labour First Minister, echoing the sentiments of some in this House. Has she used similar words in the discussions with the Prime Minister, and was he listening—or are we seeing the building of a new red wall in the Bristol Channel, one dividing Welsh Labour from its UK Big Brother?

My Lords, anyone would think that there might be an election within the next 12 months.

Bring it on.

We won the last one and we will win the next one. The noble Baroness raises a genuine issue about the Crown Estate, which we have discussed in your Lordships’ House in great detail. That is why, thanks to the work of my noble friend Lord Hain, we brought forward an amendment in this House to appoint a commissioner for Wales. We need to look at what the Crown Estate is actually delivering: 5,000 jobs and a £1.4 billion boost in investment for the people of Wales. It delivers real things on the ground for the people of Wales, and it is important that we celebrate what we are achieving.

My Lords, if devolution is a process, what further steps along that road do the Government aspire to over the lifetime of this Parliament?

My Lords, I am proud that, in 1998, the previous Labour Government delivered the devolution Acts and what is now the Senedd in Wales and the Scottish Parliament. We are committed to devolution and to seeing devolution in action. We were very clear on that in our manifesto, which we remain committed to. We will deliver on the ongoing conversations we are having about further devolution.

My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to an election. Is she aware of the polls this morning showing Plaid Cymru on 30%, ahead of Reform UK, and with Labour in third place on 18%? In those circumstances, does she not feel it beholden on the Government to take note of the representations of the First Minister of Wales, who wants to see some parts of the social packages announced by the Government reconsidered, particularly the announcements on disability benefits, which she wants to see totally scrapped? Can the Minister give an assurance that there will always be an open door for those representations from Wales and that they will be considered on their merits, rather than being rejected because they do not fall in line with the vision seen from London?

My Lords, what is clear is that our relationship with the Welsh Government is built on respect, collaboration and delivery. There is an open door: the Secretary of State for Wales speaks to the First Minister nearly every day, we have ongoing conversations and we work very closely, through both formal and informal structures, including with parliamentarians across your Lordships’ House. With regard to the polls, we are a year away and we will be fighting for every vote.

My Lords, in an effort to be constructive, and as somebody born and brought up very close to Barry Island, I ask the noble Baroness: given the parlous state of the health service in Wales, did the First Minister and Prime Minister discuss the possibility of allowing Welsh patients to be treated across the border in England?

I thank the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity to celebrate the achievements of NHS Wales in the past three months. Waiting lists have fallen month on month over the past three months because of the additional record-breaking £21 billion of investment that has gone to the Welsh Government from this Government. NHS England and NHS Wales are working closely with each other to deliver change but let us be clear: the inheritance we were left by the previous Government —the lack of funding both for NHS Wales and for our public services across the United Kingdom—is why we find ourselves in this place.

Is it not a matter of importance what these conversations with the Welsh Government are about? Many fundamental questions have been totally ignored. One drearily familiar on this side of the House is the Barnett formula, which has led to Wales being swindled out of its funding for a very long time —by coalition, Conservative and now Labour Governments. Can we please have some improvement?

My Lords, this Government have been very clear that we have no plans to review the Barnett formula. Having said that, our manifesto stated that we recognise that the Welsh fiscal framework is out of date. We are continuing conversations with our colleagues in Wales about how we can make it work.

My Lords, what conversations has the Minister had with the First Minister about universities? We know that all universities are under very severe pressure, but universities in Wales seem to be particularly hard hit. Cardiff University, for example, has had to close its music, theology and nursing departments. What conversations has she had with them?

My Lords, sometimes it is very helpful when colleagues are sitting next to you on the Front Bench. My noble friend Lady Smith has met with Wales’s Universities Minister to discuss the challenges being faced, and I assure the noble and right reverend Lord that conversations are ongoing.

Will the noble Baroness accept that I joined with many of her colleagues in fighting against the Barnett formula, and that the Labour Party strongly attacked the Conservative Government because they did not do anything about it? Why is she now telling us that she is not going to do anything about it, when it is clearly wrong?

My Lords, the Labour Government’s position on the Barnett formula is clear, but I am always open to discussions about how the noble Lord can continue to work with us on these Benches to deliver for the people of the United Kingdom.