Parthenon Marbles: British Museum Act 1963

11:00:00

I will call Alberto Costa to move the motion, and then I will call the Minister to respond. I remind other Members that they may make a speech only with prior permission from the Member in charge and the Minister. As is the convention in 30-minute debates, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.

I beg to move, That this House has considered the Parthenon marbles and the British Museum Act 1963. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I declare at the outset that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for Greece, and yesterday I attended a lunch with parliamentarians at the Greek embassy—I hasten to add that I paid for my lunch in advance at a cost of £35. I know that the Minister, who is my predecessor as Chair of the Committee on Standards, would welcome and expect nothing less than my making that declaration. I welcome the Minister to his place, and I hope he is enjoying his role as what he and I once termed the “Minister for fun,” although I do not know how much fun he has been having over the last few months. I am here today not for Greece but for my South Leicestershire constituents—who, like the constituents of many colleagues, are highly cultured people—and for all British people, who I think could benefit from a deal with Greece on the Parthenon marbles. The discussion about the Parthenon marbles, which reside in the British Museum, is very well known. I want to highlight at the outset that this is not a debate about the background to how the British Museum acquired these marbles, nor is it a debate about apportioning blame or arguing that the British Museum, its trustees or the British people have some form of moral responsibility to return these artefacts. The sole and exclusive purpose of this debate is to put forward a proposition to benefit my South Leicestershire constituents and the constituents of all MPs across the United Kingdom, on whether a new and positive opportunity has presented itself to the United Kingdom, having left the European Union, to decide how it wishes to forge stronger relationships with each EU member state.

I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing forward this debate. He is right to say that this is about not just his constituents but constituents across this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I want to read a quote from a report by the eminent historian and senior adviser to Policy Exchange, Sir Noel Malcolm. He found that: “the claim that Elgin’s removal of the sculptures was illegal is false; the claim that his actions were invalidated by coercive bribery is false; the claim that he acted against the clear wishes of the Greek community is certainly unproven and probably false; the claim that his actions saved the Marbles from an ongoing process of serious damage, dispersal and destruction is certainly true.” That should be the Government’s clear and unequivocal position.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his very valued view. I reiterate that this debate has nothing to do with how the marbles came to be acquired by the British Museum. The hon. Gentleman may well be right to quote that individual. My only interest in this debate is to find out whether, in the 21st century, there is a deal to be had that would benefit his constituents. If he bears with me, I will come to the deal in a moment. The issue at hand is whether a new and positive opportunity has presented itself to the United Kingdom, having left the European Union, to decide how it wishes to forge stronger relationships with EU member states, and in this case with the Hellenic Republic. We all agree that the Parthenon marbles are a symbol of national identity. They are to the Hellenic Republic what the Elizabeth Tower—formerly the Clock Tower, colloquially known as “Big Ben”—is to us in the UK. The marbles were sculpted in the 5th century BC, when Athens was in her prime, and they adorned the Parthenon. They were the backdrop to the golden age of philosophy, democracy and art. These sculptures would have been admired in their original glory by the likes of Plato and Socrates, and they would have served as inspiration to Sophocles, other great playwrights and now legendary thinkers.

My hon. Friend will know Socrates famously said that the only thing worth knowing is that we know very little, but we do know that these marbles are part of western civilisation. They are not exclusively part of Greek civilisation; we all have ownership of them, and the British Museum’s stewardship has been profound and valued. Are we to return every Canaletto to Italy or gain every Hockney back from abroad?

Most certainly not. I thank my right hon. Friend for his valued contribution. That is precisely the issue that I do not wish to debate. He may well be absolutely correct to say that these sculptures are of such western significance, and that the way in which they were acquired by the British Museum may have been entirely lawful. That is not the purpose of the debate. My right hon. Friend is an excellent individual for wanting to achieve a deal that would benefit his constituents in Lincolnshire.

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will make a further point first. Let me be clear: this is not a debate about returning all the treasures in the British Museum. If it were, we might be here for another century. I put on record that I collect antiquities, so the idea that they should all be returned to their countries of origin is not one that I share. This is a very specific debate about one isolated group of items that have a strong identity with a friendly allied country. That identity, and that alone, means there is an opportunity for the United Kingdom to materially benefit from some form of deal or agreement that goes beyond simply possessing the marbles in the British Museum. What sort of creative but dignified win-win scenario could be reached between the UK and Greece?

I congratulate the hon. Member both on securing this debate and on the manner in which he is approaching it. He is absolutely right that we should not stray into the areas that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) are getting involved in by arguing about the past. I declare my interest as chair of the British Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures and as someone who has campaigned on this issue. I think it would be better to look forward. The UK’s relationship with the European Union is irrelevant to the strength of the case for having a deal with the Greeks on a return. Going forward, we need to undertake a gracious act. We have a dishonourable past on this issue, and there is a way to redeem ourselves by doing the honourable thing. We are on the cusp of being able to do that, given the chairmanship of the British Museum and the current political environment—I hope the Minister will confirm that.

Order. Interventions should be somewhat briefer than that.

Sorry, Mr Vickers.

I welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), just as I welcome the contributions of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). It is not so much about making a gracious gesture. My argument is about the possibility of achieving a win-win for our two respective countries that offers the United Kingdom material benefits beyond the mere possession of the marbles in the British Museum. What if consideration were given to returning the marbles over time, perhaps over a generation—20 or 30 years—as a temporary or permanent loan, or through some other legal device? In return, I would expect the Hellenic Republic to lend some of its most highly prized treasures to be exhibited, on a rolling basis, not just in the British Museum but in principal museums across the whole United Kingdom.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate, to which I am largely sympathetic, even as a member of the British Museum. He speaks of a win-win, for which the Lewis chessmen are a template. One of the most iconic parts of the British Museum’s collection, they were found in Uig in Lewis, in my constituency, in 1831. Six pieces of the set have been returned on a long-term loan to Museum nan Eilean in Stornoway, where they are much admired, 11 are in the National Museum of Scotland, and the remainder are here in London at the British Museum. Perhaps the score is not even, but a deal is there to be done, and the Lewis chessmen provide a template for what the hon. Gentleman wants to achieve.

I thank the hon. Member for citing the welcome example of those artefacts, which I have enjoyed viewing on a number of occasions. I want to ensure that every Member of Parliament and, most importantly, our constituents are able to access and see at first hand some of Greece’s most valued treasures. Let me give some examples: the Antikythera mechanism, that ancient Greek clockwork gadget that some have ascribed with a connection to Archimedes—it is basically the world’s first clockwork device, and it could be called a computer; the dazzling treasures of Philip II of Macedon, reputedly the father of Alexander the Great; the bronze statue of Zeus; or indeed the famed golden mask of Agamemnon, which was my introduction to the treasures of Greece when I read the “Collins Children’s Encyclopedia” at the age of six, back in 1977. Greece is replete with superb treasures. Imagine if we had some of those fabulous treasures on rotation in the Leicester Museum to benefit my constituents, or in the National Museum of Scotland or the Ulster Museum.

Or in Spalding.

Or in Spalding, or any other principal museum across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Indeed, the National Museum of Wales in Cardiff would be a prime candidate, as I am sure the Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism, and many of his Rhondda constituents, would agree. The North Lincolnshire Museum, which serves many of your constituents, Mr Vickers, would make a wonderful temporary home for some of Greece’s greatest treasures. I propose that Greece goes further. The agreement with Greece should permit the same rules for British citizens that apply to Greek citizens when visiting the Acropolis Museum, which is a splendid new museum in the foothills of the Acropolis that could potentially house the marbles. Greece could show its goodwill by allowing British citizens free access to view the marbles in their new purpose-built potential home overlooking the Parthenon. There is already tremendous friendship and goodwill between our two countries. In 2023, more than 4.5 million British tourists flocked to Greece—the highest number on record. Of course, we in the UK also benefit from thousands of Greeks coming here to study and work. Indeed, some call the UK their home, and they enrich our country. Let us also not forget our shared history: Britain stood shoulder to shoulder with Greece in world war two. Churchill is often quoted as saying during that war that, “We will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks.” That is a tribute to their courage and loyalty, and to the unshakable bonds between our two nations—not just our history but our shared values and mutual respect. Greece and Britain are democratic families. Most families have their disputes, but Greece and the UK have none, except this one. We now have an opportunity to heal a decades-long disagreement, and to turn the one and only issue that has ever caused our nations to argue into a triumph of teamwork—a win-win exchange that brings superb Greek treasures to our shores, free museum entrance for British tourists in Athens, and sees the marbles back on home soil, overlooking the Parthenon. I would be grateful to the Minister if he would, at the very least, commit to writing to me with responses not just to the points that I have raised but, especially, to the following questions. First, have the Government had any communication with Greek authorities since early July 2024 about the status of the marbles? If so, will the Minister write to me outlining the substance of those communications, when they took place and between whom? Secondly, do the Government consider that under current UK law, the British Museum trustees have the authority to temporarily lend the artefacts to the Acropolis Museum? If so, will the Minister write to me about the terms under which such a temporary loan to the Acropolis Museum could be made? Thirdly, if it is the Government’s view, on the other hand, that the British Museum trustees do not have the authority, under current UK law, to temporarily lend the artefacts to the Acropolis Museum, what legal changes would be required—and to which Act or Acts—to permit a temporary or permanent loan, with the British Museum trustees retaining legal ownership of the marbles? Fourthly, under what circumstances would the UK Government be prepared to undertake an assessment of whether there is an opportunity for a mutually beneficial agreement with Greece about the future status of the artefacts? In other words, what conditions would need to be met for the Government to consider it possible that an opportunity presents itself for the UK to enhance its relationship with Greece by viewing the artefacts as an instrument to advance Britain’s material interests? Throughout my speech, I have sought to avoid apportioning any blame about the historical acquisition of the artefacts. I have also made it clear that the debate wholly and exclusively concerns the use of these specific artefacts to enhance Britain’s relations with Greece through a win-win, mutually beneficial partnership. This debate should in no way give succour to any suggestion that Britain is under a moral duty to repatriate the artefacts, nor does it seek to argue or give strength to any third-party argument that other artefacts possessed by any UK-based museum should also be returned to the country of origin. I do not and never have held that view. As I said at the outset, my sole focus is on how to benefit my South Leicestershire constituents, and MPs’ constituents across the whole of the United Kingdom, by using the artefacts as an instrument to materially benefit their interests.

11:19:00

Kalimera, Mr Vickers. It is very good to have this debate and I commend the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Alberto Costa) for bringing it to the House. Interestingly, it is the first one on this issue in this Parliament, and I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak about it. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that UK relations with Greece are extremely warm and tender, and have been for many centuries in many regards. Perhaps Lord Byron is best known in the UK for his poetry, and for being “mad, bad and dangerous to know”, but in Greece, he is considered to be quite a hero. That is why I am delighted that we are in the process of having the statue of Lord Byron moved to Hyde Park, where it will have a more prominent display. I know that the Greek Government have been supportive of that. For that matter, I have been to one production of Oedipus in the last few months, and there have been two—albeit rather updated—versions here. I think we all know that Greek culture is a really important part of our foundational understanding of what it is to be a modern democracy. Indeed, the word “democracy” comes from two Greek words, and “telephone”, “oligarchy” and so many other parts of our language are determined by their Greek origins. The hon. Gentleman was also absolutely right to point to the many millions of British people who go to Greece every year. I think one in four British people goes to Spain every year and one in six British people goes to Greece. That is why it is so important that in the conversations I have had, particularly with my Greek counterparts, both as Tourism Minister and as Culture Minister, we have often focused on those issues more than anything else. We want to enhance the relationship. This is nothing to do with being a member of the European Union or not being a member of the European Union. I was really delighted only a couple of weeks ago to be invited as a Culture Minister—I think it is the first time this has happened since Brexit—to the informal meeting of Culture Ministers in Warsaw. There are so many areas in which our cultural relationships are intrinsically linked with Greece, not least in our discussions about Ukraine and security in the eastern Balkans. There are so many areas in culture and security where our geopolitical relationship with Greece is absolutely vital. That is nothing to do with whether we are a member of the European Union. That is why we want to press the reset button on our relationship with the EU.

Will the Minister give way?

I will, but it will limit the amount of time I have to respond to the questions.

I welcome the Minister’s opening remarks, particularly about Lord Byron, who, of course, was opposed to Lord Elgin’s actions regarding the removal of the Parthenon sculptures. Clearly, the specific point for today is whether it is possible, under the 1963 Act, for the British Museum to arrange a loan, and whether the Minister and the Government would stand in its way.

If the hon. Gentleman had let me get on to that subject, we would have got there earlier, but he got to make his point—I think he divided the speech he would otherwise have made into two interventions. That is not something that I ever did when I was—

Of course not.

That is the use of irony, which is also, of course, another fundamentally Greek concept. I want to say at the outset that the marbles are an extraordinarily significant and important part of Greek and—I would argue—western artistic and architectural understanding. Nobody should ever diminish their importance. Indeed, it is upsetting to think of previous moments when the Acropolis was used as an arsenal, and a big explosion ended up destroying large parts of it. That was many centuries ago. The marbles were built between 447 BC and 438 BC by Phidias, who was one of the greatest of all Greek artists and sculptors. He also designed and built the great statue of Zeus at Olympia, which was one of the seven great wonders of the world, along with the hanging gardens of Babylon and so on. Many of us who have been to see, both here and in Athens, all the different elements of the marbles know how extraordinary they are, although I worry that we do not quite see them in the brilliance that people would have seen them originally. We know now, from lots of research that has been conducted, that they would have been painted or tinted in some way, and they would really have stuck out. The battle of the Centaurs and the Lapiths, and the frieze with the Panathenaic procession, would have looked very different from how we experience them today. This is a debate that has gone on for 200 years, although I think the first direct bid from the Greek Government to the UK Government was back in 1983, and it was turned down in 1984. I should make some things very clear. First, the Parthenon marbles—or the Elgin marbles, whatever we want to call them—are not the property of the UK Government. That is sometimes misunderstood, because in different countries, parts of the national patrimony are actually under the direct ownership of the Government. We do not have that structure in the UK. From the outset, the British Museum was set up as an independent body. Its trustees are given fiduciary responsibilities under the British Museum Act 1963 now—it was originally under previous Acts before that—and they have to adhere by them. If they do not, they will find themselves in court. That is one of the aspects of this debate that we have to bear in careful consideration. One of the questions that has been raised fairly regularly is whether it is legally possible for there to be an indefinite loan. I want to be clear about that issue, because I noted that an article in The Daily Telegraph— I think it followed a conversation that the hon. Member for South Leicestershire had with the paper—talked about an indefinite loan. Let me be absolutely clear that the British Museum Act 1963 states in section 3, on the keeping and inspection of collections: “Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall be the duty of the Trustees of the British Museum to keep the objects comprised in the collections of the Museum within the authorised repositories of the Museum, except in so far as they may consider it expedient to remove them temporarily for any purpose connected with the administration of the Museum and the care of its collections.” It is possible for loans to be enabled through an open individual export licence. They are granted by Government, but can be granted only for up to three years. Obviously, the working assumption of anything that is temporary—a temporary licence— is that it is guaranteed that the items are returning. That puts paid under existing law to any idea of an indefinite or permanent loan. I have read articles where people in Greece say that they are not interested in a loan anyway, because a loan implies that the marbles still belong to the British Museum rather than to Greece. The important point that I am trying to clarify—because I think there has been some misunderstanding—is that under existing law, it would be impossible for there to be a permanent or indefinite loan. The trustees would be required, in seeking a licence to export, to show that they were absolutely certain that the items were returning. I do not think that would be easy if they had arranged a permanent or indefinite loan—the point being that we would have to change the law. The immediate question that the hon. Member may ask is whether we are intending to change the law. We have no intention to change the law. I will respond to some of the hon. Member’s other questions in writing. He asked about conversations or communications with the Greek Government on this issue since last July. I have met several Ministers, including Culture Ministers and Tourism Ministers, at various different times. The only occasion on which this issue was mentioned was when the Tourism Minister came to see me on 4 November last year, and she very briefly raised the matter. We mostly talked about tourism, but there was a brief mention of the Parthenon sculptures. I will check if there have been any other communications from the Greek Government since last July, but I am not sure there have been. I may be wrong, so I will write to the hon. Member. There are provisions in the 1963 Act for temporary loans, and my understanding is that the chairman of the British Museum has been in some discussions. We have not been party to those discussions, but he has briefly outlined some of the issues that have arisen, both to me and to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I am not aware of any further developments in that area in recent months. If a suggestion of a temporary loan were to come from the British Museum, there is a process for considering that under existing law, but that would— Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

11:30:00